Post Click Conversion (with Shamir Duverseau)

Name: Post Click Conversion (with Shamir Duverseau)
Uploaded: 2026-02-19T15:59:19.000Z
Duration: 1 h 28 min 50 s

Introduction to Shamir De Verso

Background and Experience

Shamir De Verso is a marketing innovator and founder of Smart Panda Labs, with over 40 years of experience in digital marketing.

He has led marketing initiatives for major brands like Disney, Marriott, Southwest Airlines, and NBC Universal.

After decades in enterprise advertising, he shifted focus from traditional ad-centric marketing to the post-click experience.

The Importance of Post-Click Experience

Concept Introduction

Shamir emphasizes that effective marketing involves not just pre-click strategies but also what happens after a user clicks on an ad.

He introduces the idea that "the click is a promise," where users expect certain outcomes based on their interactions with ads.

Operational Implications

The discussion highlights how operational aspects are crucial for fulfilling the promises made by advertisements.

Marketers' actions impact key operational metrics such as capacity, cost to serve, and time to value.

Understanding Growth Beyond Demand

Demand vs. Operations

Growth should be viewed through both demand generation and operational delivery; actual products or services must fulfill initial demand.

Positive metrics like increased traffic or lead volume can mask underlying issues if the post-click experience fails to deliver.

Consequences of Poor Execution

If quality leads are not generated effectively, it can lead to increased support tickets and strain on resources.

Financial implications arise when costs associated with serving customers rise due to poor execution despite apparent revenue growth.

Strategies for Effective Marketing

Focus on Operational Efficiency

Emphasizing an operational perspective allows marketers to enhance their effectiveness and contribute positively to business outcomes.

Delivering on Promises

The initial promise made through advertising must be supported by a seamless post-click experience that aligns with customer expectations.

Understanding the Post-Click Experience

The Importance of Accurate Information

The decision-making process hinges on whether the information provided aligns with user expectations, impacting operational delivery.

Users may require additional support during their shopping journey, such as chat or phone assistance, which can affect customer satisfaction and support needs.

Analyzing the Post-Credit Experience

The post-click experience is crucial for addressing user questions and concerns after an advertisement, influencing overall business operations.

Poor onboarding processes and misaligned product expectations can lead to increased churn risk and rising operational costs due to inadequate customer fit.

Identifying Business Constraints

Reflecting on personal business constraints helps identify specific issues that need addressing in marketing strategies.

A focus on how marketing impacts various constraints can reveal underlying problems affecting business performance.

Shifting Marketing Mindsets

Traditional marketing strategies often prioritize traffic generation over quality leads, leading to operational challenges when low-quality traffic converts poorly.

Emphasizing quality over quantity in traffic generation is essential for reducing operational pains associated with poor conversions.

Reevaluating Advertising Investments

There is a need to shift away from outdated marketing beliefs that prioritize high traffic volumes without considering lead quality.

Major advertising platforms may promote spending more as a solution; however, this overlooks the importance of post-click experiences in driving sales effectively.

Connecting Marketing Tactics to Operational Metrics

Effective marketing tactics should be linked directly to user experiences that influence behavior and decision-making processes.

Understanding this connection allows businesses to see how marketing efforts impact operational metrics significantly.

The Chain Reaction of Marketing Efforts

Marketing tactics lead to specific user experiences that shape behaviors and decisions, ultimately affecting key operational metrics.

This chain reaction highlights the necessity for marketers to consider both front-end engagement and back-end operations in their strategies.

Understanding Consumer Decision-Making in B2C and B2B Markets

The Impact of Financial and Emotional Risks on Purchase Decisions

The decision-making process for high-consideration purchases (e.g., homes, cars) is significantly different from low-consideration items (e.g., shoes) due to higher financial and emotional risks involved.

As consumers face greater stakes, the importance of making informed decisions increases, leading to a more time-consuming decision-making process. This can impact post-purchase metrics if not managed properly.

Psychology Behind Decision-Making: System One vs. System Two Thinking

Behavioral scientist Daniel Kahneman introduced the concepts of system one (quick, emotional responses) and system two (deliberate, analytical thinking). Consumers naturally prefer system one due to its ease.

Simple questions like "What's two plus two?" trigger system one thinking, while complex calculations require a shift to system two thinking, which demands more mental effort. This transition can disrupt normal activities like walking.

Marketing Challenges: Keeping Consumers in System One Thinking

Marketers aim to facilitate easy decision-making by keeping consumers in system one mode; however, significant purchase risks often necessitate a shift to system two thinking. This creates additional cognitive load for consumers as they weigh their options.

To assist consumers effectively, marketers must provide relevant information that reduces cognitive load and encourages a return to easier decision-making processes associated with system one thinking.

Post-Click Psychology Framework: Navigating Consumer Hurdles

The post-click psychology framework outlines psychological hurdles that influence buying decisions both online and offline: relevance, trust, orientation, stimulation, security, convenience, and confirmation. Each step must be navigated sequentially akin to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Relevance and Trust in Online Shopping

Upon clicking an ad for sneakers online, the first concern is whether the information presented is relevant—confirming it matches expectations regarding product type or promotions offered.

Following relevance comes trust; factors such as brand reputation and website design contribute significantly to consumer perceptions of trustworthiness during their shopping experience.

Understanding Consumer Decision-Making in Online Purchases

The Initial Considerations Before Purchase

Consumers often question if the product is available in their size and what makes it superior to alternatives, such as comparing Nike sneakers to Reebok. This reflects a need for stimulation in decision-making.

Security and Convenience Factors

A significant concern for consumers is whether the transaction will be secure and if they can easily return the product if needed. They also consider how straightforward the purchasing process will be, including how much information they must provide.

Psychological Hurdles of Confirmation

After making a purchase, consumers experience psychological hurdles regarding their decision, especially with high-risk purchases. They seek immediate confirmation that they made the right choice to alleviate any doubts about their decision.

Importance of Clear Policies and Communication

Effective marketing tactics include clear policies, reassurance copy, and proactive FAQs that address common consumer questions like return policies. Properly positioning this information can reduce buyer anxiety and increase confidence in their purchase decisions.

Impact on Operational Metrics

By setting clear expectations upfront regarding returns and sizing, businesses can decrease return rates and call volumes while enhancing customer confidence during the buying process. This leads to lower operational costs associated with customer service interactions.

Connecting Marketing Actions to Business Outcomes

Marketers should recognize how their strategies not only drive revenue but also contribute to cost savings by reducing churn rates and support calls due to effective communication of value propositions during campaigns. This holistic view enhances overall business health beyond just revenue metrics.

Case Study: Improving User Experience in Payment Processes

A real-life example from a vacation rental business illustrates how redesigning a confusing payment page improved user orientation by clarifying accepted credit cards, thus reducing customer inquiries related to payment issues during transactions.

Understanding Customer Experience and Operational Efficiency

The Impact of Demographics on Online Purchases

Organizations with older demographics often face challenges in online purchasing due to unfamiliarity with processes like entering CCV numbers. This leads to increased questions and hesitance during transactions.

A redesign of the purchasing page can significantly reduce friction, resulting in higher conversion rates and average order values. Additionally, this improvement correlates with a decrease in customer service inquiries post-purchase.

B2B Example: Enhancing Enterprise SaaS Experiences

In a hypothetical B2B scenario involving enterprise SaaS, it is crucial to ensure that the software aligns well with the buyer's needs (ideal customer profile). This relevance is key for successful sales outcomes.

The onboarding process must be streamlined to maximize value from the software, reducing time wasted on unsuitable demos and ensuring buyers have clear expectations from the start.

Metrics Influenced by Marketing and Sales Tactics

Effective marketing and sales strategies positively impact various metrics such as activation rates and time-to-value for customers, emphasizing the importance of considering post-click experiences beyond just conversion rates.

Implementing an experimentation operating system allows organizations to identify operational challenges alongside marketing goals, fostering a holistic approach to improving both revenue and cost efficiency.

Continuous Improvement Through Experimentation

Organizations should engage in hypothesis-driven testing (e.g., A/B tests) to evaluate how changes affect business metrics beyond just revenue—considering costs as well. Successful initiatives can then be prioritized for rollout based on their effectiveness.

The iterative nature of this process requires ongoing data collection and diagnosis of emerging issues within operations, creating a dynamic framework that adapts to changing market conditions and customer needs.

Identifying Constraints for Improvement

To initiate improvements, organizations should focus on specific constraints such as high support volume or long activation times, mapping these issues back to psychological barriers affecting costs (e.g., security concerns).

By ideating solutions through an established operating system, teams can create hypotheses for testing that encompass both marketing performance metrics and operational cost implications when reporting outcomes.

Insights on Integrating Marketing Metrics and Operational Efficiency

Understanding Call Volume and System Integration

The discussion begins with the importance of tracking call volume, chat interactions, and refunds to assess customer experience. Effective integration between various market tech tools is essential for this analysis.

A proof of concept can help organizations visualize the impact of these metrics, fostering a cultural shift towards data-driven decision-making.

Building a Cultural Shift in Organizations

As organizations adopt new frameworks, they begin to see improvements in key business metrics beyond just sales figures, promoting a holistic view of performance.

Reporting should encompass broader metrics like cost to serve and time to value, allowing all team members to understand their contributions toward overall business success.

Transitioning from Subjective to Objective Decision-Making

The traditional approach often relied on subjective decisions based on hierarchy; however, the new method emphasizes understanding buyer perspectives that influence operational metrics.

By connecting buyer psychology with operational outcomes, businesses can create predictable results through informed tactics that enhance customer experiences.

Importance of Cross-Functional Team Alignment

Achieving alignment across operations, marketing, and product teams is crucial as silos can hinder progress. Everyone must understand their roles in contributing to shared goals.

Ensuring all teams are aligned fosters collaboration and clarity about responsibilities within the framework supporting the flywheel effect for business growth.

Measuring Marketing Effectiveness Beyond Revenue

A critical question arises regarding how marketing should be evaluated not only by revenue but also by cost-to-serve metrics. This requires a cultural shift in measurement practices.

Ownership of these metrics encourages accountability among team members regarding their impact on overall business performance.

Identifying Key Metrics for Marketing Focus

Teams are encouraged to identify specific metrics that are vital for their current stage or challenges. This focus allows marketing departments to align efforts with organizational needs effectively.

Ownership and Accountability in Metrics

Importance of Ownership

Emphasizes the significance of taking ownership over tasks that directly impact critical metrics, fostering accountability among team members.

Highlights the necessity for teams to understand the interconnectedness of their actions beyond just generating traffic or focusing on branding.

Understanding Organizational Impact

Discusses how advertising, copy, and creative experiences can have profound effects on the organization, either positively or negatively.

Operational Strategies in Post-BIC Experience

Collaborative Roadmap Development

Suggests creating a joint roadmap as a foundational step for addressing operational challenges and implementing A/B testing effectively.

Recommends documenting issues collaboratively to identify problems, hypothesize solutions, and outline tactics for market testing.

Structured Measurement Approach

Advocates for a structured approach to measurement within the roadmap to ensure objective evaluation rather than subjective interpretation.

Notes that even simple tools like Excel can be effective for organizing thoughts and strategies in this process.

Overcoming Psychological Hurdles

Resources for Best Practices

Inquires about resources to help overcome psychological barriers in decision-making processes related to prioritization.

Conversion Hierarchy Insights

Introduces Andre Morris's conversion hierarchy as a framework for understanding fundamental questions at different levels of customer engagement.

Practical Tools and Techniques

Heuristic Analysis Application

Suggests using heuristic analysis with a rating scale (e.g., 1 to 5) to identify pain points in customer experiences effectively.

FAQs as Self-Service Solutions

Recommends utilizing FAQs on websites as an initial resource where customers can find answers independently before reaching out.

Addressing Customer Objections

Encourages incorporating common customer objections into marketing materials upfront, enhancing clarity before direct interactions.

Customer Service Challenges and Lead Management

Understanding Customer Issues

The speaker discusses a conversation with a CEO who revealed 950 outstanding customer issues, emphasizing the need to address recurring problems rather than just acknowledging them.

Key reasons for customer service needs include product quality, service quality, unmet expectations, and ineffective FAQs that lead customers to call instead of seeking answers online.

Revenue vs. Overhead

The speaker expresses frustration over organizations focusing on acquiring more leads without addressing existing inefficiencies in closing leads or managing costs effectively.

There is an emphasis on the misconception that more leads are needed when the focus should be on optimizing current lead conversion rates and reducing overhead costs.

Metrics for Lead Quality

A real estate investment company raises questions about determining baseline metrics for lead quality, highlighting the desire for better leads from their acquisition team.

The discussion breaks down lead generation into two main components: advertising efforts to generate leads and the conversion rate from those leads to actual customers.

Conversion Rate Insights

The second conversion rate (from lead to customer) is identified as a critical measure of lead quality; understanding which customers convert can help optimize future marketing efforts.

By analyzing high-quality customer segments, businesses can identify characteristics that contribute to higher conversion rates compared to lower-performing segments.

Benchmarking and Optimization

Businesses can establish benchmarks by evaluating channels driving higher conversions, allowing them to focus resources on effective strategies while eliminating less productive ones.

The initial measure of quality is defined as the successful transition from interest (filling out forms or making calls) to becoming a paying customer, guiding further analysis of pre-conversion factors impacting success.