Dana White: UFC, Fighting, Khabib, Conor, Tyson, Ali, Rogan, Elon & Zuck | Lex Fridman Podcast #421

The Fascination with Fighting

The Influence of Fighting on Powerful Figures

• Khabib's victory over Conor McGregor drew attention from global leaders, including Putin and Trump, highlighting the sport's reach among influential figures.

• Valentina Shevchenko meets with her country's president regularly, showcasing the intersection of sports and politics.

• The obsession with fighting extends to tech moguls like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, indicating a universal appeal across various sectors.

Dana White: The Mastermind Behind UFC

• Introduction of Dana White as the president of UFC, credited for revolutionizing mixed martial arts (MMA).

• Dana recalls his first fight experience at his grandmother's house during an Ali fight, which sparked his interest in boxing.

Muhammad Ali: A Unique Legacy

• Dana considers Muhammad Ali not just a great fighter but the greatest human being due to his impact beyond boxing.

• Emphasizes Ali’s courage to stand against societal norms during a perilous time in history.

• Discusses how Ali’s personality made it difficult for even the most prejudiced individuals to dislike him.

Falling in Love with Boxing

• Dana shares that he fell in love with boxing after watching Hagler-Leonard in 1987, feeling Hagler was robbed in that match.

• He became a regular viewer of USA's Tuesday Night Fights, drawing parallels between boxing and elements he later incorporated into UFC.

Critique of Boxing Commentary

• Dana expresses disdain for certain boxing commentators like Larry Merchant and Jim Lampley, preferring to mute their commentary during fights.

Mike Tyson's Legacy and Commentary in Boxing

The Impact of Detractors on Mike Tyson

• Despite a potential win, Mike Tyson faces ongoing criticism from detractors who feel misled after his fights with Holyfield, leading to a decline in his reputation.

• Fans express frustration over the negative commentary during Tyson's entrance, highlighting the contrast between the excitement of his walk-in and the disparaging remarks made by commentators.

Critique of Boxing Commentary

• The speaker reflects on their past analysis of boxing production, noting that HBO's commentary remained unchanged for decades despite advancements in technology like HD.

• A notable incident is recalled where Larry Merchant confronts Floyd Mayweather during an interview, showcasing how such interactions detract from the viewing experience for fighters who have sacrificed much for their sport.

Celebrating Fighters' Achievements

• Emphasis is placed on recognizing boxers as legends deserving celebration rather than mere entertainment figures; their accomplishments should be honored.

• Joe Rogan and Daniel Cormier are highlighted as ideal interviewers due to their respect for the sport and personal experience, contrasting them with traditional commentators lacking fight experience.

Evolution of Combat Sports

• The discussion suggests that poor handling of boxing contributed to the rise of UFC; experiences as boxing fans shaped what UFC has become today.

• Observations are made about how martial arts have evolved rapidly over three decades, surpassing developments seen in previous centuries.

Personal Experiences with Jiu-Jitsu

• The speaker recalls watching UFC 1 and being skeptical about its no-rules format but found it exciting when experienced firsthand at a friend's house.

The Humbling Experience of Training with Frank Shamrock

The Impact of High-Level Training

• The speaker describes a humbling experience training with Frank Shamrock, emphasizing the effortless pressure he felt during side control, which made him tap out.

• He reflects on his initial comfort with guillotine submissions and being on the bottom in grappling but expresses discomfort with wearing a gi.

• Transitioning to no-gi training allowed him to feel more effective, as he found it challenging to secure submissions while wearing a gi.

Evolution of No-Gi Jiu-Jitsu

• The discussion highlights the growing popularity of no-gi jiu-jitsu, noting its resemblance to actual fighting compared to gi training.

• The speaker argues that being comfortable standing and clinching is crucial for real-life scenarios, especially considering clothing constraints in street fights.

The Rise of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Its Influence

Royce Gracie's Impact on MMA

• The speaker recalls how Royce Gracie's success against larger opponents changed perceptions about martial arts effectiveness.

• He notes that many were surprised by Gracie's victories, leading them to realize there was more complexity in martial arts than previously understood.

Benefits of Jiu-Jitsu for Women

• Emphasizing technique over size or strength, the speaker advocates for girls learning jiu-jitsu as it empowers them against larger opponents.

• He highlights that even smaller women can effectively defend themselves using jiu-jitsu techniques.

The Origin Story of Modern UFC

Initial Encounters and Stigma

• The conversation shifts to how the UFC began when John Lewis introduced the speaker and Frank Shamrock to ground fighting.

• They discovered that many fighters had impressive backgrounds contrary to public perception; this included college degrees and diverse life stories.

Acquisition of UFC

• A pivotal moment occurred during contract negotiations where Bob Meyrowitz expressed financial troubles within the UFC.

• Following this call, Lorenzo reached out, leading them to acquire the UFC for $2 million amidst skepticism about its viability.

Challenges in Building the Sport

Corruption and Violence in MMA

The Dark Side of Fighting Promotions

• The speaker discusses the prevalence of corruption within the fighting industry, highlighting that many individuals prioritize personal gain over the business's success.

• A specific incident is mentioned where MMA promoters engaged in violent acts, including car bombings and shootings, illustrating the extreme lengths some would go to in this competitive environment.

• The speaker recounts receiving daily death threats from Todd Beard, an owner of Affliction, showcasing the hostile atmosphere prevalent during the early days of MMA promotions.

• Corruption extended to pay-per-view companies like In Demand, which had a monopoly and were described as "bad guys," leading to a shift towards streaming services for better control.

• The speaker reflects on managing various aspects of the business—from venues to merchandise—while dealing with numerous shady characters throughout their journey.

Challenges in Production and Leadership

• An anecdote about Phil Baroni highlights challenges faced during production; despite pushback from production staff regarding content quality, the speaker insisted on authenticity.

• After a conflict with freelance production staff who disregarded his vision, he ultimately fired them all and sought a new team that aligned with his goals.

• Early on, there were only two employees; however, through gradual growth and learning from experiences, they expanded their team significantly over time.

• The speaker emphasizes that they had minimal knowledge about production when starting but learned quickly by diving into tasks and building a competent team around them.

• Building effective teams has been identified as one of the key accomplishments over 25 years in business; having a clear vision is crucial for success.

Keys to Success in Fighting Promotions

Insights on Hard Work and Passion in Business

The Journey of Commitment

• The speaker emphasizes their dedication to work, arriving at 9:30 AM daily and often leaving late, showcasing a strong work ethic.

• Reflecting on past experiences, they express relief at no longer having to endure tedious budget meetings that were frequent and unproductive.

• They stress the importance of being detail-oriented in the early stages of business, highlighting that success requires total commitment without personal distractions.

Sacrifices Made for Success

• A personal anecdote reveals the extent of their commitment; they moved their son's birth date for a significant fight event, illustrating an "all-in" mentality.

• The speaker conveys that their motivation is rooted in passion rather than financial gain, stating they have always loved what they do regardless of monetary status.

Embracing Challenges

• Discussion about undertaking ambitious projects like "the sphere," which presents unique challenges but is pursued for its excitement and difficulty.

• They outline specific logistical challenges related to integrating a massive screen with an octagon setup while aiming to create a memorable sporting event.

Production Complexity

• The production will be live-streamed across multiple platforms including pay-per-view and theaters, indicating high stakes and broad audience engagement.

• Mention of ESPN documenting the making of this event highlights its significance within the sports community.

Joe Rogan's Impact on UFC

Early Contributions

• The speaker praises Joe Rogan's initial contributions to UFC, noting he worked for free during challenging times when the organization was struggling financially.

Transitioning from New York to Vegas

• Anecdotes about moving UFC’s corporate office from New York to Las Vegas illustrate the operational changes made during ownership transition.

The Impact of Joe Rogan on UFC

Joe Rogan's Passion for Fighting

• The speaker discusses how Joe Rogan, initially known from "Fear Factor," passionately promotes UFC while critiquing martial arts movies, emphasizing the toughness of UFC fighters.

• Unlike typical paid commentators, Rogan's genuine love for the sport shines through in his commentary, making him relatable and engaging.

Challenges in Media Promotion

• Early media coverage for UFC was scarce; the speaker had to invest in radio tours to promote the sport.

• Fighters struggled with early morning radio appearances leading up to fights, often sounding tired and unenthusiastic. Only Rogan and the speaker managed to effectively engage audiences during these tours.

Educating Fans on MMA

• Rogan played a crucial role in educating fans about MMA techniques, explaining ground game strategies before they unfolded during fights.

• His contributions have been pivotal for both UFC's growth and understanding among viewers; he is now recognized as one of the biggest podcasters globally.

Loyalty and Support

• The speaker reflects on a moment when he offered his resignation to support Rogan amid controversy over his commentary role.

• Emphasizing loyalty, he expresses that those who stand by him will always be supported; this mutual respect between him and Rogan is highlighted.

Business Partnership Dynamics

• The speaker describes his effective partnership with Lorenzo Fertitta, noting their contrasting personalities balance each other out well.

• Their complementary skills were vital during challenging financial times for UFC, showcasing how their teamwork contributed to overcoming adversity.

Financial Growth and Historical Significance

• Reflecting on the Fertitta brothers' initial investments in UFC reveals how their financial backing transformed countless lives over 25 years.

What Makes a Legend in Fighting?

The Nature of Fighters and Their Mindset

• Fighters often exhibit paranoia regarding matchups, believing that they are being set up to lose. This mindset can hinder their performance.

• Unlike scripted sports like WWE, the outcome of fights is not predetermined; fighters must rely on their skills and preparation once the fight begins.

The Role of Matchmaking in Creating Legends

• In other organizations, fighters may avoid tough matchups due to fear or lack of motivation, while the UFC strives to create competitive matchups.

• Veteran fighters must be prepared for challenges from younger competitors who aspire to take their place in rankings.

Underdogs and Legendary Moments

• Being an underdog can enhance a fighter's legacy; notable examples include Dustin Poirier's unexpected success against perceived stronger opponents.

• Iconic fights often arise when expectations are defied, such as Israel Adesanya vs. Sean Strickland or Conor McGregor’s early career bouts.

The Impact of High-Stakes Fights

• Winning against formidable opponents elevates a fighter's status; Conor McGregor's victories have solidified his position among the greatest fighters.

• Controversial moments leading up to significant fights (e.g., Khabib vs. McGregor) serve to heighten interest and narrative around these events.

Storytelling in Fight Promotion

• Effective storytelling is crucial for promoting fights; it helps convey the significance and background behind matchups.

• The UFC operates on a continuous cycle of event promotion, emphasizing the need for compelling narratives each week.

Transitioning to UFC: A Different Level of Competition

• Fighters transitioning from other organizations often experience a stark difference in visibility and pressure when joining the UFC.

Who is the Greatest of All Time in MMA?

Jon Jones' Dominance

• The discussion opens with a provocative question about the greatest MMA fighter, leading to Jon Jones being named as a contender.

• Key metrics for greatness include his undefeated record and dominance in light heavyweight, considered the toughest weight class at the time.

• Longevity in the sport is also crucial; many fighters are surpassed by younger talent, but Jon Jones remains unbeaten.

• A pivotal moment in Jones' career was his fight against Gustafsson, which tested him like never before and showcased his resilience.

• Despite controversies outside the octagon, Jon Jones’ achievements solidify his status as arguably the greatest of all time.

Khabib Nurmagomedov's Potential

• Khabib is acknowledged as one of the all-time greats but is questioned on whether he faced enough challenges during his career due to injuries and early retirement.

Relationship with Conor McGregor

Positive Partnership

• The speaker describes their relationship with Conor McGregor as overwhelmingly positive, citing punctuality as a minor issue.

• McGregor’s willingness to take risks and accept fights without demanding extra money highlights his commitment and professionalism.

Impact on UFC

• Conor McGregor's rise from humble beginnings to becoming a megastar significantly expanded UFC's global reach and audience.

Khabib and Conor: The Importance of Matchups

The Necessity of Legendary Matchups

• The speaker emphasizes that avoiding matchups is not an option for fighters. Legendary figures like Conor McGregor and Khabib Nurmagomedov needed each other to solidify their legacies.

• It’s highlighted that Cyril Gane also needed Jon Jones, as defeating a champion like Jones would be monumental in a fighter's career.

• The discussion points out that the significance of a perfect record in the UFC is secondary to the quality of opponents faced; fighting notable competitors is what truly matters.

Impact of Fighting on Legacy

• Achieving a perfect record in the UFC signifies exceptional talent, making one of the most special athletes globally.

• The influence of fighting extends beyond sports; powerful figures such as presidents are deeply engaged with it, showcasing its cultural relevance.

Trump's Connection to Fighting

Trump as a Fight Fan

• The speaker recounts discovering Donald Trump's passion for fighting during early UFC events at his venue, highlighting Trump's support during challenging times for the organization.

• Trump reached out with encouragement during significant milestones in the UFC's journey, demonstrating his belief in its potential.

Personal Relationship with Trump

• A personal anecdote reveals Trump's invitation to speak at the National Republican Convention, illustrating their friendship despite differing political views.

• Numerous stories illustrate their relationship, including phone calls discussing upcoming fights and sharing personal moments post-election.

Resilience and Support

Trump's Resilience

• The speaker describes Trump as incredibly resilient amidst public scrutiny, often unfazed by challenges he faces daily.

Political Landscape and Personalities

The Nature of Politics

• Discussion on the resilience of a political figure who is described as "walking through fire" and not getting rattled, indicating a strong character in the face of adversity.

• Acknowledgment that politics is considered the dirtiest game compared to other competitive fields, highlighting its inherent challenges and moral complexities.

Speculation on High-Profile Fights

• Reference to a potential fight between Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg, emphasizing it would have been a monumental event due to their status as powerful figures.

• Insights into the planning process for this fight, including venue considerations and serious discussions about making it happen.

Fighter Motivations and Legacy

Mike Tyson's Career Choices

• Commentary on Mike Tyson's decision to fight at an older age, with acknowledgment of his seriousness in training for upcoming bouts.

• Exploration of Tyson's unique position where he has made significant money outside boxing, yet still receives offers he can't refuse.

The Duality of Fighter Motivation

• Discussion on motivations behind fighters entering the ring: some seek greatness while others pursue fame or financial gain.

• Emphasis on how fighters who genuinely love the sport are often remembered more fondly than those motivated solely by money or fame.

Impactful Moments in MMA History

Fame and Its Challenges

• Reflection on how early success can lead to difficulties managing fame; contrasting experiences of Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonner post-fight fame.

The Ultimate Fighter Fight Analysis

• Examination of why the fight between Forrest Griffin and Stephan Bonner was pivotal for UFC’s popularity; it stood out amidst less exciting matches during that event.

The Journey of a Runaway Hit Show

Challenges Faced with Spike TV

• The timing of events felt serendipitous, as everything came together perfectly despite numerous challenges faced with Spike TV.

• After the president of Spike TV was fired mid-season, promotional efforts for their runaway hit show were severely lacking; no commercials or billboards were produced.

• A pivotal fight led to an impromptu contract signing in an alley, showcasing the unexpected magic and significance of that moment.

The Stakes of Competition

• The competition between Stephan and Forrest was intense, driven by their desire to win; the winner would receive a Kia car, which became symbolic beyond its material value.

• Forrest's attachment to the Kia was highlighted; he drove it extensively, suggesting that his experience could have been leveraged for effective advertising.

The Essence of Fighting

• In high-stakes moments like these fights, primal instincts take over; fighters often forget about external rewards and focus solely on winning.

• Exhaustion during fights leads to self-doubt and mental struggles; true champions push through these barriers despite feeling overwhelmed.

Mental Fortitude in Combat Sports

• Fighters face significant psychological challenges when fatigue sets in; they must confront thoughts of failure and even mortality while continuing to fight.

• Moments where fighters choose to keep pushing forward despite exhaustion are seen as victories over themselves rather than just physical wins.

Unique Nature of Top Competitors

• The determination displayed by fighters every weekend is remarkable; only a small percentage reach elite levels due to their unique qualities and resilience.

Gambling Experiences: Wins and Losses

Notable Gambling Achievements

• Discussion shifts towards gambling experiences; one notable win included a million-dollar hand at Manila Bay.

Lessons from Losses

A Night in Vegas: Lessons from a $3 Million Loss

The Experience of Gambling and Drinking

• The narrator recounts a night at the Rio, where he and friends enjoyed dinner and drinks before heading to gamble in the Thai Limit Room, ultimately losing $80,000.

• Upon waking up, he realizes the loss was actually $3 million after being informed by a host about his reckless behavior during gambling.

• He acknowledges that while alcohol is free in casinos, it’s crucial to take responsibility for one's actions rather than blaming external factors.

Reflection on Gambling Behavior

• This experience served as a significant learning lesson for him; he decided never to drink while playing cards again.

• The narrator humorously admits to calling the hotel GM derogatory names during his drunken state, highlighting his impulsive nature when intoxicated.

Psychological Approach to Winning and Losing

• He describes gambling as a series of battles within an overarching war, emphasizing that wins and losses are part of the game.

• Unlike others who may suffer severe consequences from gambling losses, he maintains control over his finances and emotions.

Coping with Wins and Losses

• Winning brings joy while losing is an inevitable aspect of gambling; both must be accepted as part of life’s journey.

• He warns against letting losses lead to deep depression; resilience is key in both gambling and life challenges.

Embracing Life's Challenges

• Life presents constant challenges that require facing them head-on rather than avoiding or hiding from them.

• Each day is viewed as preparation for battle; embracing chaos fuels his passion for competition in various aspects of life including business and sports.

Passion for Competition

• The narrator expresses enthusiasm for engaging in competitive environments like casinos or sports events, indicating that this drive keeps him motivated.

Gratitude and Resilience in Life

The Love for the City

• The speaker expresses a deep love for their city, describing a nightly drive on Summerlin Parkway where they can see the entire city illuminated at night. This moment evokes feelings of gratitude after an incredible day.

Embracing Challenges

• Despite facing problems daily, the speaker emphasizes their ability to celebrate life and enjoy problem-solving, indicating a positive mindset even amidst difficulties.

Power Slap's Success

• The speaker discusses their involvement with "Power Slap," highlighting it as the most successful venture they've been part of in 13 months, showcasing resilience against negativity.

Influential Movies and Personal Growth

Impactful Films

• When asked about movies that changed their life, the speaker mentions "Casino" and "Forrest Gump," noting how these films resonate with personal experiences and lessons learned throughout life.

Lessons from "Vision Quest"

• The movie "Vision Quest" is highlighted as transformative; it tells the story of an underdog wrestler who decides to make his mark despite challenges. This narrative deeply resonates with the speaker's own journey.

Key Themes from "Vision Quest"

• A poignant scene involves a girl realizing life's brevity while walking through falling leaves, emphasizing that many waste time instead of pursuing greatness.

• Another significant moment features a character questioning why someone would endure hardship for wrestling, illustrating themes of dedication and perseverance.

Emotional Connections to Film

The Pele Speech

• A powerful speech within "Vision Quest" moves the speaker emotionally; it reflects on personal struggles versus public success, resonating deeply with their own experiences.

Underrated Messages

• The speaker believes that "Vision Quest" contains profound messages about determination and self-worth, asserting its status as one of the most underrated films regarding one-on-one combat narratives.

Final Thoughts on Influence

The Essence of Fighting and Humanity

The Connection Between Wrestling and Humanity

• The speaker reflects on how a movie about wrestling sparked their love for the sport, emphasizing that it tells a basic human story.

• They discuss the beauty of fighting as it showcases humanity, particularly in those who pursue greatness against long odds.

• A quote from "Rocky III," "There is no tomorrow," resonates with them, highlighting the urgency to accomplish goals today rather than procrastinating.

Attitudes Towards Life and Death

• The speaker expresses a lack of fear regarding death, focusing instead on maximizing each day and living life to its fullest.

• They share their enthusiasm for life, stating they dislike sleeping because they want to experience every moment without missing out.

Insights from Observing Fights

• Watching thousands of fights has taught the speaker that fighting is inherent in human nature; it transcends race, nationality, or language.

• They note that when fights occur, people are drawn to watch due to the intense emotions involved—fear, excitement, and energy fill the atmosphere.

The Universality of Fighting

• The speaker concludes that humans have an innate attraction to fighting; this understanding influenced their decision to invest in UFC.