How the internet is Radicalizing Young Men And Creating Incels | Offline With Jon Favreau

Sexualizing Mixed-Sex Friendships

Laura Bates discusses how society sexualizes mixed-sex friendships, leading to self-segregation by gender and aiding in the radicalization of young men.

Sexualizing Mixed-Sex Friendships

• Society sexualizes mixed-sex friendships, causing kids to self-segregate by gender from a young age.

• Boys need close female friends as a defense against online radicalization.

• Online extremism is often fueled by misogynistic ideology that oppresses women and glorifies violence.

The Rise of Misogynistic Extremism

Laura Bates explains how she became aware of the rise of misogynistic extremism through her work with the Everyday Sexism Project and her experiences working with young people.

Becoming Aware of Misogynistic Extremism

• Bates became aware of misogynistic extremism through her work with the Everyday Sexism Project.

• Young men are being radicalized under the radar through fake statistics and arguments from online spaces.

• This kind of radicalization was happening effectively but almost completely under the radar until recently.

Understanding the Manosphere

In this section, the speaker explains what the manosphere is and how it unites different communities that take as their starting point the idea of taking the red pill.

What is the Manosphere?

• The manosphere is an online ecosystem that unites different communities.

• All these communities take as their starting point the idea of taking the red pill, which means seeing the world as it truly is.

• Men are seen as oppressed by feminist gains, while women have sexual and economic freedom.

• Different ideologies grow from this base system across a loosely connected network of blogs, websites, forums, social media platforms, Reddit threads, Vlogs etc.

Different Communities within Manosphere

In this section, we learn about different communities within manosphere such as incels who are men who describe themselves as involuntary celibates. We also learn about MGTOWs who think that women are so dangerous false rape allegations are so rife that they cut women out of their lives altogether.

Communities within Manosphere

• Incels are men who describe themselves as involuntary celibates and believe that women owe them sex.

• They incite offline physical and sexual violence against women.

• MGTOWs think that women are so dangerous due to false rape allegations being rife that they cut women out of their lives altogether.

• Men's rights activists claim to be fighting for issues affecting men but in reality focus on fighting against feminism and undermine men's issues.

Evolution of Incel Community

This section talks about how the incel community has evolved over time. It started relatively harmlessly but grew into a much more dangerous community.

Evolution of Incel Community

• In the early 90s, a Canadian woman started a small online community for people of any gender who hadn't had luck in finding a relationship to talk about their experiences and support each other.

• It was called "in-cells" with a "v" in the middle, and it was benign and supportive.

• Some 20 years later, she saw an article about Elliot Roger who committed a massacre in Santa Barbara California in the name of this so-called incel movement.

• The incel movement today is violently misogynistic and not supportive of men. Men often egg each other on to kill themselves.

Scale of the Problem

This section talks about the scale of the problem and how it has been heading.

Scale of the Problem

• The incel community is just one part of manosphere that is growing rapidly.

• It is bad for everyone as it promotes violence against women and undermines men's issues.

• There has been an increase in violent attacks by men who identify with these communities.

Incel Communities and the MeToo Movement

The rise of incel communities has been dangerous, with over 100 people being murdered or seriously injured by men acting in the name of these communities. There has also been a deliberate manipulation of public response and misinformation to present MeToo as a threat to men and capitalize on it as a means of recruitment.

Incel Communities

• UK visits to the biggest incel websites have increased around five-fold in the last year alone.

• Over 100 people have been murdered or seriously injured by men explicitly acting in the name of these communities.

• There is a broader permission structure granted by people like Trump and some media highlighted backlash to MeToo that then makes it easier to go down these rabbit holes.

Manipulation of Public Response

• There has been a cynical and deliberate manipulation of public response and misinformation to try and present MeToo as a threat to men.

• Mainstream radio programs, TV programs asking if MeToo is a Witch Hunt, are women hysterical, can men even talk to women in the workplace anymore?

• This facilitated radicalization.

Infiltrating Online Extremist Groups

Alex infiltrated online extremist groups by creating a fake identity. He saw himself as normal but had resentment towards media calling him privileged. It started with surface-level content on social media platforms such as YouTube about feminists being taken down. The YouTube algorithm served up incrementally more extreme content until he ended up with someone who suggested going onto bodybuilding forums where he was directed to a pickup forum. It's gradual and often presented as banter and jokes, but it's hard to put your finger on the point where it stops being a joke.

Infiltrating Online Extremist Groups

• Alex infiltrated online extremist groups by creating a fake identity.

• Alex saw himself as normal but had resentment towards media calling him privileged.

• It started with surface-level content on social media platforms such as YouTube about feminists being taken down.

• The YouTube algorithm served up incrementally more extreme content until he ended up with someone who suggested going onto bodybuilding forums where he was directed to a pickup forum.

• It's gradual and often presented as banter and jokes, but it's hard to put your finger on the point where it stops being a joke.

The Use of Language in Misogynistic Online Communities

In this section, the speaker discusses how language is used in misogynistic online communities to dehumanize women and create a sense of scientific legitimacy for their views.

Pseudoscientific Language

• Misogynistic online communities use pseudoscientific language to create the impression that their views are scientifically valid.

• Terms like "void" and "roasty" are used to refer to women, which shows how little they see women as human beings.

Joking as a Defense Mechanism

• People who haven't experienced these extreme groups may think that it's all just a joke. This is similar to the defense mechanism used by people who support Trump.

• However, this is not just harmless joking around; it's extreme misogyny that can lead to real-world violence.

The Importance of Direct Quotes in Understanding Misogynistic Online Communities

In this section, the speaker talks about why it was important for her book on misogynistic online communities to include direct quotes from forums.

Including Direct Quotes

• The speaker had to fight with her publishers to include direct quotes from forums because they were hard-hitting and difficult for readers.

• However, including direct quotes was important because it showed that this wasn't just harmless joking around but rather incitement to violence.

Extreme Misogyny in Online Communities

In this section, the speaker discusses the extreme misogyny that she encountered in online communities.

Celebrating Violence

• Online communities celebrate violence against women and actively incite offline attacks and massacres.

• They share videos of school shootings and complain about the lack of audio so they can hear the girls scream as they die.

Fantasizing About Rape and Murder

• Men on these sites fantasize about raping and murdering the speaker in the most gruesome ways possible, including using furniture to cause internal injuries.

• They actively discuss how to carry out mass shootings with higher body counts and more female victims.

The Emotional Toll of Researching Misogynistic Online Communities

In this section, the speaker talks about how difficult it was for her to research misogynistic online communities.

Emotional Impact

• The speaker found it hard to constantly inhabit this world for 18 months to two years while researching her book. She had days when she had to turn off her laptop and cry because it was so bleak.

• Even after finishing her research, she couldn't just step away from it because then threats started coming in from guys in the forums where she'd been undercover.

The Cost of Investigating Misogyny

In this section, the speaker discusses the toll that investigating misogyny takes on individuals both mentally and physically. She also shares a real-life example of physical threats made against a judge involved in a legal case with a member of these groups.

Mental and Physical Toll

• Investigating misogyny takes a toll on individuals both mentally and physically.

• There are things that investigators see that they cannot unsee.

• Members of these groups can pose physical threats to investigators.

Real-Life Example

• A judge involved in a legal case with a member of these groups was targeted by them.

• They disguised themselves as UPS drivers and opened fire at her house, murdering her husband and seriously injuring her son.

Disguised Misogyny

In this section, the speaker talks about how misogyny is disguised through jokes, memes, and banter. She explains how young people can consume this content without necessarily seeing it for what it is.

Continuum of Misogynistic Content

• Misogynistic content is presented as jokes, memes, and banter.

• It's deliberately done so that young people can consume this content without necessarily seeing it for what it is.

• The starting point isn't necessarily typing "I hate women" but rather something popping up on their social media feed.

Examples of Disguised Misogyny

• Memes using cultural touchpoints such as viral Instagram images or cartoons.

• Jokes about women deserving equal rights or being covered in blood at the bottom of stairs.

• Banter about feminism causing changes from 1950s housewives to heavily tattooed women with shaved heads.

Characteristics of Radicalized Men

In this section, the speaker discusses the characteristics of men who become radicalized and how it's not a monolithic group. She also talks about how some men feel a sense of aggrieved entitlement.

Not a Monolithic Group

• Men who become radicalized are not a monolithic group.

• It's very varied and important to say that there is no one characteristic that defines them.

Sense of Aggrieved Entitlement

• Some men feel entitled to something they've been denied, such as sex or jobs.

• There is no data on demographics, but there is a significant group within this community who are white college-educated young men.

The prevalence of misogyny in politics and society

In this section, the speakers discuss the prevalence of misogyny in politics and society. They highlight that it is not limited to a specific type of person or group.

Misogyny in Politics and Society

• Misogyny is prevalent in politics and society.

• It is not limited to a specific type of person or group.

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Impact of Intel Communities on Women

The speaker discusses how Intel communities and the broader manosphere are affecting women, especially young women who now live most of their lives online. She highlights the unique moment where a generation of digital natives are being parented and educated by a generation who are not digital natives, leading to a massive culture divide.

Key Points

• Intel communities and the broader manosphere are affecting women, especially young women who now live most of their lives online.

• A generation of digital natives are being parented and educated by a generation who are not digital natives, leading to a massive culture divide.

• Online porn that kids today watch shows women being brutalized, raped, coerced, humiliated, degraded, and hurt.

• One-third of teenage girls say they experience unwanted sexual touching at school while one rape per day on average is reported from inside UK schools to the police.

Misogyny as it Relates to Politics

The speaker talks about the growing gender gap in the US where more women keep voting for Democrats while more men keep voting for Republicans. She highlights how misogyny is affecting politics and how it relates to the gender gap.

Key Points

• The US has a growing gender gap where more women keep voting for Democrats while more men keep voting for Republicans.

• Misogyny is affecting politics and how it relates to the gender gap.

• One of the biggest demographic groups that Democrats kept losing was white men without a college degree.

• Women are underrepresented in politics, with only 24% of seats in national parliaments held by women globally.

Preventing Misogynistic Radicalization

In this section, the speaker discusses the links between misogynistic ideologies and white supremacy. She also talks about how prevention is better than de-radicalization and suggests ways to prevent radicalization.

Links Between Misogynistic Ideologies and White Supremacy

• Members of far-right white supremacist groups see online misogyny as a gateway drug to pulling people further down the road to white supremacy.

• Within these communities, there is explicit and extreme racism, particularly towards women in mixed-race relationships.

• Foundational in the beliefs of white supremacists is an inherent misogyny, with an obsession with birth rates and the idea of white women as a vulnerable commodity to be plundered.

Prevention Is Better Than De-Radicalization

• Prevention is much easier, cheaper, and more effective than de-radicalization.

• The answer is conversations from a much younger age that give young people tools around gender stereotypes, consent, healthy relationships, and internet literacy.

• It's about providing spaces offline where men can experience what is attractive and appealing in these online groups. This includes giving them a sense of community, justice, cause, brotherhood, comradeship, shared identity.

• Creating spaces where young men are actively supported given Community where their mental health issues are supported and addressed offline would also help because many guys in these spaces are vulnerable kids.

Compassion for Vulnerable Boys

• It's not about attacking those boys but supporting them because ultimately what Andrew Tate is telling them he exploiting these young kids for his own financial gain.

• It is also about compassion and supporting guys as well.

Approach to Prevention

• When trying to prevent radicalization, we have to have an approach that meets young men where they are, starting with memes, culturally significant things, jokes, etc.

• Compassion is necessary for prevention because we don't want them to fall into that hole.

Understanding Radicalization

In this section, the speaker discusses how boys and men are portrayed in relation to radicalization and how they can be supported to prevent it.

Boys and Men in Relation to Radicalization

• Boys who are being exploited and radicalized by extremist groups need support.

• Men who exploit and radicalize young boys should be treated differently.

• There is an opportunity for men to stem the tide of radicalization by interacting with younger men in their lives.

Advice for Parents of Young Boys

• Little and often conversations about gender roles are important.

• Finding small opportunities in day-to-day life to give permission to question and challenge gender stereotypes is key.

• Encouraging kids of all genders to have really good platonic relationships is powerful.

• Not stigmatizing mixed-sex friendships can help prevent self-segregation by gender.

Teaching Kids About Consent

In this section, the speaker talks about teaching kids about consent and bodily autonomy.

Importance of Teaching Consent

• Teaching kids about consent is important to respect their bodily autonomy.

• It is similar to teaching them not to hit other kids.

Building Healthy Communities Online

• Social isolation is a hallmark of the extremely online era, leading people to fall down rabbit holes.

• Solutions involve building healthier communities online that draw people in.

• Men need to create these communities and support younger men into them.

Using Entertainment for Positive Change

In this section, the speaker discusses how entertainment can be used for positive change and building healthy communities online.

Appropriating Forms of Entertainment

• The far right has been successful in appropriating forms of entertainment and light-heartedness online.

• Using memes, graphics, and viral videos can help play them at their own game.

Men Creating New Communities

• Men need to decide what new communities will look like.

• Larissa MacFarquhar has written multiple books on difficult subjects related to this topic.

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Magic Spoon and Dominion Voting Systems

In this section, the hosts discuss two news items from the week. The first is about a sponsorship deal with Magic Spoon cereal, which offers high protein and low sugar options. The second is about Fox News settling their defamation lawsuit with Dominion voting systems for $787.5 million.

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Dominion Voting Systems

• Fox News settled their defamation lawsuit with Dominion voting systems for $787.5 million.

• Some people had expected more accountability from Fox News regarding their spreading of disinformation during the election.

• However, there are still some positive outcomes such as disincentives against future lying and meaningful accountability through the settlement amount.

Settlement Outcome of Dominion Voting Systems Lawsuit

In this section, the hosts continue discussing the outcome of Fox News' settlement with Dominion voting systems for $787.5 million.

Impact on Democracy

• The hosts discuss what impact this outcome may have on democracy and rampant spread of disinformation.

• They note that specific statements made by Fox hosts were carefully couched but still led to potential damage claims by Dominion.

Message to Right-Wing Media Outlets

• The hosts discuss whether this outcome will send a message to right-wing media outlets to be more careful with their lies.

• They note that the outcome of the settlement and specific statements made by Dominion may serve as a disincentive for future lying.

Changes in Legal Landscape

The legal landscape has changed for Fox News due to recent rulings that were unfavorable to them. This has caused the lawyers at Fox to be more cautious about what they say before hitting a level of liability.

Impact of Recent Rulings

• Recent rulings have changed the legal landscape for Fox News.

• Individual rulings during Discovery were unfavorable to Fox.

• Lawyers at Fox are now more cautious about what they say before hitting a level of liability.

Response to Smartmatic Case

• Fox claims they have the highest standards of journalism.

• They acknowledge that some judge somewhere said something might not have been true, but still believe claims of voter fraud are newsworthy.

• Despite facing lawsuits, people at Fox seem unphased and not cowed by it.

Settlement Numbers and Future Implications

The settlement number being public is significant because it forces Fox News to be held accountable if they demonstrate actual malice in lying about a company. Shareholders are already concerned about how much money is being spent on these lawsuits.

Dominion vs Smartmatic Cases

• The settlement number being public is significant because it forces accountability on Fox News.

• Smartmatic case has an arguably stronger case than Dominion's case.

• Smartmatic demands full retraction from Fox disavowing lies spread about 2020 presidential election.

Future Implications for Fox News

• Next time around, when Trump will probably be the nominee again, Fox News will have to be more cautious.

• Fox News was close to following Trump and Sidney Powell on the election lie.

• Shareholders are concerned about how much money is being spent on these lawsuits.

Defamation Lawsuits and Blue Check Marks

In this section, the speaker discusses the value of defamation lawsuits in fighting disinformation in an online era. They also talk about the disappearance of blue check marks on Twitter and how it has become a cultural marker.

Defamation Lawsuits as a Tool to Fight Disinformation

• Defamation lawsuits are the best tool we have in an era of rising disinformation.

• The standard for defamation has demonstrably moved, making it easier to hold people accountable for spreading false information.

• While some people may still go to YouTube or 4chan for conspiracy theories, anything that can move the needle in a better direction is good.

Impact of Defamation Lawsuits on Fox News Viewers

• Some casual Fox News viewers repeat conspiracy theories like Dominion because they see it as in-group signaling rather than actually believing it.

• It's hard to say how much Fox being forced to move its line will affect those viewers, but media consumption drives emotional affect and sentiment towards issues.

Disappearance of Blue Check Marks on Twitter

• Mastodon doesn't have blue check marks because no one is trying to impersonate anyone else. This is seen as brilliant opsec.

• The disappearance of blue check marks has become a cultural marker that signifies taking down elites.

• Celebrities who still have blue check marks are trying to get rid of them, which is terrible for Twitter.

Elon Musk and Social Media

In this section, the speakers discuss Elon Musk's behavior on social media and how it affects the platform.

Elon Musk's Behavior on Twitter

• Elon Musk is always searching for a new grievance.

• The speakers compare his behavior to that of a kid who paid people to come to his birthday party but still no one wanted to come.

• The speakers discuss how they are changing their use of Twitter due to the negativity on the platform.

Impersonation Issue

• The impersonation issue is troubling, and the speakers wonder if it is an inside job by Elon Musk to heighten the contradictions of social media capitalism.

• They mention some examples of impersonations, including Barack Obama and Bernie Sanders.

Conclusion

• The speakers conclude their discussion by mentioning John Favreau and thanking Max Fisher for joining them.