Kevin Spacey: Power, Controversy, Betrayal, Truth & Love in Film and Life | Lex Fridman Podcast #432
Interview with Kevin Spacey
This conversation features Kevin Spacey, a renowned actor known for his roles in various films and "House of Cards." The discussion delves into his experiences, including the allegations against him and his approach to acting.
Becoming John Doe in "Se7en"
- Kevin Spacey shares how he landed the role of John Doe in "Se7en" after another actor was fired.
- He describes the unconventional decision to not take billing in the film to enhance the impact of his character's reveal.
- Spacey recounts the last-minute nature of joining the cast and shaving his head for the role.
Portrayal of a Serial Killer
- Due to time constraints, Spacey didn't have much preparation for building his character but credits director David Fincher for setting up the audience to meet John Doe effectively.
Discussion on Acting and Directing in a Scene
The actors discuss the intensity and direction of a pivotal scene in the movie, focusing on the nuances of their performances and the guidance provided by the director.
Analyzing Performances
- During filming, David Fincher emphasized the importance of subtlety to create a powerful performance.
- The film's elements, style, and buildup allowed for impactful acting without excessive effort.
- Tragedy in storytelling often stems from characters lacking crucial information known to the audience.
Directorial Guidance
- David Fincher's direction focused on authenticity and repeated takes to strip away unnecessary embellishments.
- Fincher's approach aimed at extracting genuine emotions from actors by pushing them to deliver with sincerity.
The Art of Subtle Acting
Exploring the significance of subtle acting choices and how they contribute to character portrayal and scene dynamics.
Mastering Subtlety
- Directors like David Fincher prioritize authentic delivery over added theatrics or props.
- Jack Lemmon's anecdote highlights the challenge of achieving minimalism in acting for maximum impact.
Navigating Intense Scenes
Reflecting on challenging scenes involving complex emotional dynamics among actors within a high-stakes narrative context.
Emotional Dynamics
- Brad Pitt's intense portrayal required restraint from other actors to maintain scene balance.
Discussion on David Fincher's Directing Style
In this section, the conversation delves into David Fincher's directing style, particularly focusing on his preference for multiple takes and the impact of pace and timing in his work.
David Fincher's Approach to Takes
- David Fincher is known for doing a high number of takes, averaging between 25 to 65, compared to most directors who do less than 10.
- Fincher's emphasis on timing is evident as he sometimes instructs actors to shorten scenes by specific durations to maintain a desired pace.
Importance of Pace and Timing
- Fincher values natural dialogue without dramatic pauses, aiming for realistic conversations that mirror real-life interactions.
- The focus on pace, timing, movement, and clarity in Fincher's work is crucial for audience engagement and maintaining narrative momentum.
Acting Naturalness and Stripping Away Acting Facades
This part explores the idea of actors being as natural as possible in their performances, stripping away artificiality to enhance authenticity.
Embracing Natural Acting
- Directors like Sam Mendes assist actors in trimming unnecessary elements from their performances to enhance authenticity.
- The goal is for actors to remove unnecessary embellishments and focus on embodying characters genuinely.
Distinguishing Between Acting and Performing
The discussion centers around the distinction between acting and performing, emphasizing different aspects of engaging with an audience.
Acting vs. Performing
- David Fincher highlights the difference between acting (dramatization of text) and performing (seduction of an audience), underscoring unique skills required for each.
- While performance often leans towards entertainment and winning over audiences, acting involves serving the writing faithfully.
Creating Lifelike Characters
This segment focuses on how actors create characters that resonate deeply with audiences, becoming enduring companions through their portrayals.
Enduring Character Portrayals
- Actors aim to make characters lifelike so that they become ingrained in viewers' minds long after the performance ends.
The Power of Asking Questions in Acting
In this section, the speaker discusses the importance of asking questions to deepen understanding and enhance performance in acting.
The Significance of Questioning
- John Swanbeck advises the speaker to analyze the meaning of a line in a play and work backward from it, leading to a breakthrough in understanding the scene.
- Understanding the significance of a line, "That last drink, the old KO," as a boxing term reveals deeper emotional and physical layers within the play.
- Embracing Swanbeck's advice to ask unexplored questions uncovers hidden depths in the script, enriching character portrayal and scene interpretation.
Balancing Improvisation and Script Authenticity
This segment delves into the interplay between improvisation and adherence to the script in acting.
Navigating Improvisation
- Improvisation serves as a valuable tool during rehearsals, allowing exploration of different character choices and scene dynamics under varying circumstances.
- Through improvisation, actors can push boundaries, discover new facets of their characters, and explore alternative narrative trajectories beyond what is written on the page.
Maintaining Script Integrity
- While improvisation offers creative freedom, staying true to the text ensures consistency across performances while allowing room for growth within each enactment.
The Dynamic Nature of Theater vs. Film
Contrasting theater with film highlights the ever-evolving nature of live performances versus static cinematic representations.
The Living Essence of Theater
- Theater embodies continual growth and evolution with each performance offering opportunities for improvement and exploration unlike film where performances are fixed.
Theater: A Family and Learning Experience
In this segment, the speaker discusses the unique aspects of theater, emphasizing the sense of family and continuous learning that comes with it.
Theater as a Family
- Theater involves taking risks and embracing vulnerability, leading to a strong bond among cast members.
- Being part of a theater production creates a family-like environment where actors support each other daily.
- The experience in theater allows for continuous growth and learning, unlike sporadic interactions in movies.
Differences Between Film Acting and Live Theater Acting
This section delves into the distinctions between acting in films versus live theater performances.
Acting Dynamics
- Good acting transcends mediums; understanding oneself is crucial for effective acting.
- Live theater demands a different energy level and stamina compared to film acting.
- On-stage camaraderie can lead to unexpected moments during performances.
Improvisation in Acting
The discussion revolves around the role of improvisation in understanding characters while respecting the written script.
Improvisation Insights
- Improvisation aids character exploration but should complement rather than overshadow scripted dialogue.
- Improvisation's value varies between comedy scenes and serious performances.
Memorable Scene with Al Pacino
Reflecting on an intense scene with Al Pacino, highlighting unexpected challenges and learning experiences.
Intense Filming Experience
- Recounting an intense filming moment where improvisation led to genuine reactions.
Interview Insights
In this section, Kevin Spacey shares his experience of getting a major role in a film and the influence of Al Pacino and Jack Lemmon on his career.
Al Pacino's Influence
- Kevin Spacey recalls how he got a significant role in a film due to Al Pacino's recommendation.
- Al Pacino played a pivotal role in helping Spacey secure the job, showcasing the power of mentorship in the industry.
Working with Jack Lemmon
- Spacey reflects on working with Jack Lemmon as a mentor and friend, highlighting their strong bond.
- Discusses a powerful scene with Lemmon at the end of a movie, emphasizing their chemistry and professionalism.
Early Encounters with Jack Lemmon
- Recounts his first meeting with Jack Lemmon at a young age during a theater production workshop.
- Describes how Lemmon's encouragement influenced his decision to pursue acting as a career.
Pivotal Audition Experience
Kevin Spacey narrates his determined efforts to audition for "Long Day's Journey Into Night" despite initial obstacles.
Meeting Jonathan Miller
- Details how he strategically approached director Jonathan Miller to secure an audition opportunity.
- Highlights the persistence and unconventional methods he employed to land an audition for the play.
Securing the Role
- Narrates the audition process and receiving positive feedback from Miller after performing scenes.
Jack Lemmon's Influence on Acting
In this segment, the speaker reflects on the impact of Jack Lemmon's encouragement and acting style on his own career.
Jack Lemmon's Inspirational Words
- Jack Lemmon aimed to spread sunshine, inspired by his father's last words.
- The speaker recalls how Lemmon's influence shaped his own abilities and performances.
Directing Techniques in "American Beauty"
The discussion focuses on the unique directing methods employed in the film "American Beauty" to enhance character development.
Sam Mendes' Approach
- Sam Mendes utilized theatrical elements in filming to enhance character evolution.
- Reference to Jack Lemmon's acting in "The Apartment" as a guide for character consistency.
Character Evolution in "American Beauty"
The speaker elaborates on the gradual transformation of his character in "American Beauty" and the techniques used to depict this evolution convincingly.
Evolving Character Portrayal
- Emphasis on evolving rather than changing the character throughout the film.
- Details about physical transformations through hairpieces, costumes, and makeup for visual storytelling.
Theatrical Tricks for Character Development
Exploring subtle yet effective theatrical methods employed to portray character growth convincingly.
Visual Transformation Techniques
- Gradual changes in appearance symbolizing internal shifts.
The Art of Acting and Filmmaking
In this section, the conversation delves into the dark humor found in challenging situations, the evolution of characters in films like "American Beauty," and the impact of honest portrayals on audience reception.
Dark Humor and Character Evolution
- The ability to make jokes quickly in challenging situations is highlighted, with a reference to the humor in "Mary Tyler Moore Show."
- "American Beauty" is discussed as a film about finding oneself amidst societal pressures for conformity, emphasizing the theme of personal transformation.
- The importance of remaining true to one's core identity while undergoing significant changes is underscored.
Impactful Portrayals and Audience Response
This segment explores how authentic portrayals of characters, particularly teenagers and adults facing unexpected circumstances, contribute to the success and resonance of films like "American Beauty."
Authenticity and Audience Connection
- Honest depictions of teenage struggles and adult behavior in "American Beauty" are credited for resonating with viewers.
- Anecdotes are shared about audience reactions to the film, showcasing its ability to evoke personal reflections on relationships.
- The character Lester's journey from desperation to embracing life resonates with many individuals stuck in unsatisfying routines.
Directorial Decisions and Actor Dynamics
This part focuses on directorial choices that enhance performances, actor dynamics that elevate scenes, and anecdotes revealing behind-the-scenes insights.
Directorial Influence and Scene Dynamics
- Humor is explored as a tool against societal norms, exemplified by improvised moments like slamming a plate against a wall.
- An anecdote dispels misinformation about an improvised scene, highlighting collaborative efforts between actors and directors.
Collaborative Acting Excellence
The discussion shifts towards collaborative acting dynamics between lead actors, emphasizing chemistry on screen and mutual admiration off-screen.
Chemistry Between Actors
- The contrast between actors enhances scenes' brilliance, showcasing how interactions shape memorable cinematic moments.
- Annette Bening's remarkable performance is praised alongside insights into their shared history working together.
Directorial Vision and Confidence
Insights into directorial guidance provided by Sam Mendes shed light on reshooting decisions that ultimately shaped the film's success.
Directorial Guidance Impact
Interview Insights
In this segment, the speaker discusses the filming process of a movie, focusing on dream sequences and the trial scenes.
Filming Process Details
- The movie was framed by a trial that was shot extensively over weeks. The speaker recalls flying in dreams during opening shots and spending days suspended by wires.
- Sam informed the speaker that flying sequences and trial scenes were removed from the movie, leading to initial confusion. A favorite anecdote about Sam is shared.
- During filming in an indoor set, Sam requested a guide track recording of all dialogue for editing purposes. The speaker's innocent and direct reading style impressed Sam, leading to using the initial recording in the final cut.
Themes in "American Beauty"
This part delves into the theme of beauty in "American Beauty," emphasizing subtle details over traditional notions of beauty.
Concept of Beauty
- The discussion challenges conventional ideas of beauty by highlighting overlooked elements like a plastic bag instead of traditional symbols like roses or physical appearances.
- Emphasis is placed on appreciating simplicity and mundane aspects as beautiful, such as noticing small details like a bulletin board message saying "Look closer" in Lester's workplace scenes.
Reflections on Mortality
Reflecting on mortality through character analysis and personal experiences.
Contemplation on Death
- Acknowledging mortality as depicted in "American Beauty," where Lester faces his finite time with acceptance and liberation, finding beauty in life's uncertainties.
- Drawing parallels between personal growth journeys and those portrayed in films, highlighting opportunities for reinvention and self-improvement before facing death with contentment.
Personal Growth Journey
Exploring personal growth through experiences with aging individuals.
Learning from Experience
- Drawing inspiration from interactions with Dick Van Dyke, who embraces each day positively at 98 years old, emphasizing the importance of resolving personal matters to achieve fulfillment before death.
Interview Insights
In this segment, the interviewee addresses various allegations and clarifies their stance on specific behaviors.
Allegations Clarification
- The interviewee states they never prevented anyone from leaving in a sexual context and always respected explicit refusals.
- Denies engaging in sexual activities with underage individuals or offering sexual favors for career advancement.
- Acknowledges past boundary-crossing behavior, expressing regret and emphasizing personal growth over the years.
Reflections on Behavior
The interviewee reflects on their past actions, particularly regarding flirting and respecting boundaries.
Self-Reflection
- Emphasizes never hindering anyone from leaving or disregarding explicit refusals.
- Reiterates denial of engaging in inappropriate behavior as alleged by others.
- Expresses deep remorse for any offense caused and commits to never repeating such actions.
Navigating Relationships
Discussion on the complexities of relationships within the industry and maintaining professionalism.
Professional Conduct
- Highlights the importance of being mindful of workplace dynamics, attraction, and ensuring no one feels their job is at risk due to personal interactions.
- Addresses the admiration dynamic present with colleagues and aspiring actors looking up to them.
Accountability and Fame
Delving into accountability, fame's dark side, and navigating relationships based on genuine intentions.
Accountability & Fame
- Acknowledges wrong behaviors while highlighting misunderstandings around intentions due to fame.
Discussion on Trust and Betrayal
In this segment, Kevin Spacey reflects on trust, betrayal, and the impact of accusations on his life and career.
Trusting Instincts and Facing Betrayal
- Kevin Spacey discusses trusting his instincts and experiencing betrayal in both personal relationships and within the industry.
- Despite feeling canceled by some, Spacey acknowledges the support and kindness he has received from a quieter majority.
- Reflecting on betrayal, Spacey emphasizes that true betrayal comes from those who truly know you.
Accountability and Forgiveness
This part delves into accountability, taking responsibility for past actions, seeking forgiveness, and making amends.
Taking Responsibility and Seeking Forgiveness
- Spacey expresses readiness to take responsibility for his wrongdoings and has privately apologized to those he may have hurt emotionally.
- Acknowledging the importance of making amends privately, Spacey shares that some individuals have found it in their hearts to forgive him.
Reflection on Past Actions
Here, Kevin Spacey reflects on his past actions, decisions regarding coming out publicly, and the impact of keeping his sexuality hidden.
Reflecting on Past Choices
- Spacey contemplates how concealing his sexuality impacted his life decisions and relationships.
- Discussing the challenges of keeping his sexuality secret from the public eye for most of his life.
Handling Accusations
Addressing accusations made against him publicly and navigating the aftermath with regards to public perception.
Dealing with Accusations
- Explaining the context behind a controversial social media post following accusations made against him.
Courage and Fear in the Current Time
The discussion revolves around the concept of courage and fear in the current societal context.
Courage vs. Fear
- Kevin reflects that courage is lacking due to prevalent fear in society.
- People are afraid of being canceled if they stand up for others, leading to a culture of fear.
Character Development: Frank Underwood
Exploring the character development process of Frank Underwood and its inspirations.
Becoming Frank Underwood
- Drawing parallels between Frank Underwood and characters like Richard III for inspiration.
- Learning about direct address from Shakespeare's works and applying it to portray intimacy with the audience as Frank Underwood.
Creating Intimacy Through Direct Address
Discussing the use of direct address to establish intimacy with the audience.
Establishing Connection
- Utilizing direct address technique to share secrets with the audience as if speaking to a friend.
- Trimming unnecessary dialogue to enhance audience engagement through shared understanding.
Audience Engagement and Dark Characters
Analyzing audience reactions towards dark characters like Frank Underwood.
Audience Perception
- Engaging audiences by challenging their instincts through dark character portrayals.
- Observing how audiences rally around complex characters despite their questionable actions.
Humor and Complexity in Character Portrayal
Exploring humor as a tool to enhance complexity in character portrayal.
Humor Dynamics
- Discussing how humor adds depth to dark characters like Richard III and Frank Underwood.
Interview Insights
In this segment, Kevin Spacey discusses the nuances of portraying his character with a blend of humor, affection, ambition, and narcissism.
Portrayal of Character
- Spacey reflects on delivering lines with irony and humor.
- The challenges of maintaining rhythm in dialogue due to accents are highlighted.
- Adapting dialogue to suit the character's accent for emphasis is discussed.
Character Inspiration and Comparison
Kevin Spacey contrasts Frank Underwood's speaking style with Bill Clinton's, emphasizing differences in directness and poeticism.
Speaking Style Comparison
- Frank Underwood's speaking style is differentiated from Bill Clinton's.
Anecdote with Bill Clinton
Kevin Spacey shares an amusing anecdote involving Bill Clinton attending a play he was part of.
Interaction with Bill Clinton
- Spacey recounts an incident where he interacted with Bill Clinton during a play performance.
Political Charisma
The discussion revolves around the charisma shared by certain politicians and characters like Frank Underwood.
Charismatic Persona
- Comparisons are drawn between political charisma and captivating personalities.
Working with David Fincher
Kevin Spacey acknowledges David Fincher's influence on the show's consistency and style.
Collaboration with David Fincher
- Spacey credits Fincher for establishing the show's tone and guiding subsequent directors.
Challenges in Production
The struggles faced in production due to creative differences are explored.
Creative Battles
The Importance of Intention in Filmmaking
In this segment, the speaker discusses the significance of intentionality in filmmaking and how external influences can impact the creative process.
The Impact of Adding Music Against Intent
- Adding music against the intended silence can alter the scene's essence.
- Reference to "The Godfather" where Pacino's role was almost terminated due to perceived lack of impact until a pivotal scene changed perceptions.
Evolution of Al Pacino as an Actor
This part delves into Al Pacino's journey as an actor, highlighting key moments that shaped his career and performances.
Al Pacino's Growth and Versatility
- Discussion on Pacino's evolution from theater to film, citing impactful roles like "The Panic in Needle Park."
- Personal anecdote related to watching "The Godfather" before starting a new project, emphasizing Pacino's influence.
Exploring Cinematic Masterpieces
Here, the conversation shifts towards discussing iconic films and their enduring impact on viewers and filmmakers alike.
Ever-Changing Perspectives on Great Films
- Reflection on changing opinions regarding the greatest film of all time.
- Emphasis on directors' daring choices like Kubrick casting one actor for multiple roles in "Dr. Strangelove."
Unconventional Performances in Film
This section focuses on unconventional performances by actors portraying complex characters in notable films.
Unconventional Portrayals and Performances
- Comparison between portrayals of murderers in films like "Se7en," "Silence of the Lambs," and "The Shining."
- Highlighting Jack Nicholson's improvisation skills and bold acting choices in "The Shining."
Anecdotes from Behind the Scenes
Anecdotes shared about interactions with renowned actors provide insights into their personalities off-screen.
Revealing Stories from Set Experiences
- An undisclosed story about Jack Nicholson showcasing his unapologetic nature during filming.
- Humorous incident involving Nicholson reminiscing about past experiences while preparing for a scene.
Influence of Industry Figures
The final segment explores the significant impact industry figures have had on personal and professional growth within the entertainment realm.
Impactful Encounters with Industry Icons
Kevin Spacey's Journey in Acting
Kevin Spacey shares his experience of getting into acting, starting with an unexpected opportunity to audition for a play after being unable to afford a Broadway ticket.
Auditioning for "Hurlyburly"
- Kevin Spacey auditions for the play "Hurlyburly" after being encouraged by a director.
- Despite initial doubts about understudying a more experienced actor, Spacey learns the role and gains confidence through attitude.
Versatility in Acting
- Spacey's versatility shines as he quickly learns multiple roles in the play and impresses director Mike Nichols.
- He expands his repertoire by mastering various male parts, showcasing his adaptability and dedication to his craft.
Working with Legends: Mike Nichols and Jack Nicholson
Kevin Spacey reflects on pivotal moments working with renowned figures like Mike Nichols and Jack Nicholson early in his career.
Transition to Film
- Spacey lands a role in a film alongside Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep, highlighting the unpredictability of the industry.
- He recounts memorable interactions with Jack Nicholson on set, offering insights into Nicholson's demeanor and professionalism.
Christopher Walken Encounter
- A humorous anecdote involving Christopher Walken praising Spacey's work showcases unique interactions among actors.
- The admiration for Walken's distinctiveness underscores the value of authenticity and consistency in an actor's career trajectory.
Character Analysis: Frank Underwood from "House of Cards"
Delving into character analysis, Kevin Spacey discusses Frank Underwood from "House of Cards" and explores themes of betrayal and ambition.
Understanding Frank Underwood
- Spacey delves into Frank Underwood's complex character, emphasizing loyalty as a core belief despite betrayals.
Predicting Human Behavior
In this segment, the speaker discusses the importance of predicting human behavior based on his experience as a behavioral psychologist.
Understanding Human Behavior
- The speaker emphasizes that power is secondary to his ability to predict human reactions accurately.
- He mentions playing characters labeled as evil but highlights his approach of not judging the roles he portrays.
- The speaker explains that he refrains from judging the characters he plays and allows the audience to form their opinions.
Empathy Through Character Portrayal
This part delves into how portraying diverse characters impacts an individual's psychological growth and empathy.
Psychological Impact of Roles
- Playing complex characters with different moral systems enhances empathy and discourages judgment.
- Walking in various character's shoes fosters empathy and understanding different perspectives.
Exploring Good and Evil Within Us
The discussion revolves around the concept of good and evil within individuals, influenced by personal experiences and societal factors.
Good vs. Evil
- Reflecting on Solzhenitsyn's idea that good and evil coexist within every person, highlighting the fluidity of morality throughout life.
- Emphasizing personal growth opportunities daily through decision-making, learning, and overcoming past experiences.
Personal Journey: Family Influence
The speaker shares insights into his upbringing, particularly regarding his father's transformation over time.
Family Influence
- Recalling a childhood devoid of parental affection, leading to lifelong emotional impact.
- Unveiling gradual changes in his father's beliefs from patriotism to white supremacy due to external influences.
Challenging Ideologies
Addressing familial challenges related to prejudiced ideologies and personal values conflicting with family beliefs.
Struggles with Ideologies
- Describing encounters with white supremacist ideologies propagated by his father during childhood.
Interview Insights
In this segment, the speaker reflects on their experiences in childhood and family dynamics.
Childhood Reflections
- The speaker engaged in various activities during eighth grade to avoid going home.
- Reflecting on the transformation of their father over time, the speaker acknowledges forgiveness but recognizes an unfillable gap.
- The speaker grapples with their mother's actions of making excuses for the father instead of protecting them.
- Questions arise about whether parental love was influenced by the speaker's success in filling a void left by the father.
Personal Reflection and Self-Discovery
This part delves into self-reflection and childhood experiences that shaped the speaker's understanding of love and attention.
Self-Reflection Journey
- Recalling a childhood experiment, the speaker identifies with a baby seeking parental attention, reflecting on their own yearning for acknowledgment.
- Drawing parallels between personal experiences and observed behaviors, highlighting a deep emotional connection to seeking attention as a child.
Insights on Politics and "House of Cards"
The discussion shifts towards politics and entertainment, particularly focusing on the portrayal of politics in media.
Political Portrayal Analysis
- Exploring the accuracy of political depictions in "House of Cards" compared to real-life political scenarios.
Interview Techniques and Legacy Aspirations
The conversation transitions to interview strategies, legacy aspirations, and personal growth goals.
Interview Strategies and Legacy Goals
- Discussing interview techniques with world leaders inspired by "House of Cards," emphasizing honesty through direct camera interaction.