Austin Grossman, Andrew Grant, Sara Verrilli: Looking Glass Interview 1/10

Introduction to the Podcast and Guests

Overview of Participants

• The podcast features Austin Grossman, Andrew Grant, and Sarah Verelli discussing their experiences at Looking Glass Studios.

• Austin Grossman shares his entry into the game industry in 1992, starting with "Underworld" and working on various projects over the years.

Career Highlights

• Grossman's early work included titles like "System Shock," "Thief 3," and consulting on video games after writing a novel titled Soon Will Be Invincible.

• Andrew Grant joined Looking Glass in 1994, contributing to projects like "Flight Unlimited" and later working on "Trespasser."

Experiences at Looking Glass Studios

Roles and Contributions

• Andrew Grant discusses his role as a designer/programmer during his time at Looking Glass, including an unfulfilled project related to "System Shock."

• Sarah Verelli describes her position as lead tester for "System Shock," emphasizing communication between teams.

Project Involvement

• Verelli worked on several titles including "Terra Nova," "Thief," and served as QA manager at Irrational Games for a title that never shipped.

• Discussion about the naming conventions of games such as SWAT 4 highlights the informal nature of team discussions.

Reflections on Game Design

User Experience Challenges

• Matthew Ice expresses admiration for System Shock, despite acknowledging its usability issues which deterred him initially from playing it.

• The group reflects on how initial impressions can impact player engagement with games, citing personal anecdotes about System Shock.

Importance of Game Quality Over Usability

• Despite usability challenges, Ice emphasizes that the game's depth ultimately provided one of his greatest gaming experiences.

• The discussion touches upon how some flaws may not detract from a game's value if it enriches players' lives.

Conclusion: Insights into Game Development

Future Discussions

Chasing Authorship in Video Games

Misunderstandings and Interpretations of Game Sounds

• The speaker reflects on a long-held misconception about a voice in a game, initially believing it said "you're Rebels from Rebel Zoid," highlighting the ambiguity of sound clips.

• Two interpretations emerged within the office: one being "your memos are never good," which became clearer upon repeated listening, showcasing how different perceptions can arise from the same audio.

Exploring Authorial Intent in Gaming

• The discussion shifts to the concept of "chasing authorship" in video games, emphasizing the speaker's belief that many games exhibit authorial intent despite their collaborative nature.

• The speaker expresses interest in dissecting various games to understand individual contributions and how they shape overall player experience.

Role in Underworld 2 Development

• The speaker describes their role as primarily a writer for Underworld 2, focusing on dialogue writing and high-level design while acknowledging that much of the storyline was pre-established.

• They reflect on specific sections where they felt a personal connection or influence, particularly enjoying certain conversations crafted during development.

Creative Contributions and Inspirations

• A notable section involved undead liches modeled after classic gaming elements like Tomb of Horrors; this inspired feelings of pride due to its narrative depth and character engagement.

• The exploration aspect was significant, with players uncovering backstory through environmental storytelling rather than just linear dialogue.

Dialogue Structure and Emotional Impact

• The speaker discusses their approach to dialogue structure, opting for minimal branching conversations to maintain emotional resonance and clarity within storytelling.

Conversation Design in RPGs

Designing Conversations with Limited Branching

• The conversation system in the game is described as a typical RPG branching dialogue, influenced by mainstream Ultima games. The challenge was to design conversations with fewer branches while maintaining character personality.

Hub World and Player Interaction

• Ultima Underworld 2 featured a complex hub world where players returned after missions. The design aimed for reactivity based on player actions, but this led to limitations in how NPCs interacted with the environment.

Challenges of NPC Interactions

• Introducing multiple personalities created challenges; while NPCs could react to player actions, they often lacked responses to trivial interactions (e.g., throwing a fish), highlighting the limits of the system.

Reducing Cognitive Dissonance

• To address gameplay issues, there was an intentional reduction in NPC capabilities, limiting player exploration options. This approach aimed to minimize cognitive dissonance experienced during interactions.

Collaborative Problem Solving at Looking Glass Studios

• Discussions among team members at Looking Glass focused on design problems and solutions. Doug Church's mention of "everybody's dead" in System Shock addressed dialogue frustrations from previous games.

Emerging Themes in Game Design

Frustrations with RPG Elements

• The speaker expressed greater frustration than others regarding RPG elements in Underworld 2. Group discussions centered around player agency and emergent effects that were less pronounced during conversations compared to other gameplay aspects.

Transitioning from Dialogue to Action

• Players found conversations tedious compared to engaging 3D environments and combat systems. Conversations felt like a drag, leading players to prefer exploring interactive spaces over dialogue sequences.

Technical Limitations During Conversations

• Technical issues arose when entering conversations; the game would freeze, contributing to collective frustration about the interaction model within the game’s design framework.

System Shock: A Cyberpunk Reimagining

Conceptual Shift from Fantasy to Cyberpunk

• System Shock represented a shift away from traditional fantasy role-playing towards a cyberpunk theme set in space. This transition was driven by desires for innovation beyond existing genre constraints.

Evolution of Gameplay Mechanics

• While retaining some concepts from Underworld, System Shock eliminated numerical stats and introduced new mechanics suited for its setting. It emphasized ranged weapons over melee combat due to their increased engagement potential.

Dialogue Considerations

Exploring 3D Game Design and System Shock

The Impact of 3D Space on Gameplay

• The discussion highlights how engaging with 3D space in games activates different cognitive processes, enhancing player experience through geometry and spatial awareness.

• There was initial skepticism about the transition from 2D to 3D gaming, with concerns that it might detract from gameplay enjoyment.

Reflections on Underworld Development

• The speaker recalls efforts at Looking Glass to formalize discussions around game design, noting that only their critique of Underworld 2 was presented.

• A series of talks aimed at improving game design ideas was proposed but ultimately did not materialize beyond the speaker's contribution.

Inspirations Behind System Shock

• The Spoon River Anthology, a collection of poems reflecting life in a small town, served as inspiration for the narrative structure in System Shock.

• This anthology concept influenced the game's storytelling approach, allowing players to piece together history through fragmented narratives rather than direct interactions.

Seamless Gameplay Experience

• System Shock is noted for its seamless integration of gameplay elements, minimizing disruptions like cutscenes and maintaining immersion throughout.

• The absence of traditional cutscenes enhances player engagement by keeping them within the game world without jarring transitions.

Game Designer as an Implicit Force

• The character Showdown represents the game designer's influence, creating challenges that feel unfair yet enhance narrative depth.

• Unlike many games where designers are seen as adversaries, Showdown embodies this role explicitly, making her presence integral to the player's experience.

Legacy and Influence of System Shock

• Despite its innovative design, System Shock faced overshadowing by titles like Doom, which simplified gameplay and story elements for broader appeal.

System Shock: A Deep Dive into Game Design and Narrative

The Complexity of System Shock's Narrative

• The speaker reflects on the detective work involved in piecing together the timeline of events in System Shock, emphasizing the game's depth compared to later titles like Bioshock.

• There is a discussion about whether the complexity of System Shock is a flaw or an enriching experience, noting that it may be intimidating for mainstream gamers but rewarding for those who invest time in understanding its backstory.

• Similarities are drawn with other games like Deus Ex, which also offer extensive material for players to explore while allowing them to focus on action if they choose.

• The speaker notes that during the era of System Shock, few games provided optional narrative content that could be ignored without penalty, contrasting it with text adventures where every object was significant.

• In contrast to Underworld, which had limited textual information and required engagement with every object, System Shock allowed players to collect audio logs that contributed to a larger narrative.

Immersion and Engagement in Gameplay

• The overwhelming amount of lore in System Shock initially felt daunting; however, the speaker found themselves engrossed after dedicating time over Christmas break to play it extensively.

• The game’s final sections are highlighted as particularly strong, likening them to Apollo 13 where players feel isolated yet engaged with characters trying to assist from afar.

• Memorable moments include climbing a long ladder towards the end of the game, drawing inspiration from cinematic experiences such as The Andromeda Strain.

Authorship and Development Insights

• Discussion shifts towards authorship questions regarding design elements; while involved early on in plotting and writing audio logs, the speaker acknowledges being replaced during production.

• They mention their role as Edward Diego within the game and reflect on how voice acting was conducted using office talent rather than professional actors due to limited roles available for women.

Technical Aspects of Release Versions

• Clarification is made regarding different versions of System Shock: one version lacked audio entirely while another included music but no voice acting. This distinction impacted its commercial success.

Discussion on Game Development and System Shock

The Challenges of Early Gaming Technology

• The transition from floppy disks to CD-ROMs was significant, with early games often requiring multiple disks (8-10), leading to issues with disk reliability.

• High-end computers like the 486 and Pentium significantly improved gaming experiences, allowing for more complex games that were previously unplayable on older systems.

Conceptualization of System Shock

• The original concept of System Shock involved a hacker tampering with an AI, which leads to the AI's sentience—a central theme in the narrative.

• A recurring theme in the game is the relationship between creator and creation, exploring who truly holds power in this dynamic.

Character Development and Story Progression

• The protagonist was pitched as a woman, challenging norms at the time; however, players do not see themselves directly in-game except during cinematics.

• The final confrontation with the AI character Shodan evolved throughout development, initially lacking a climactic battle until closer to release.

Unique Ending Mechanics

• The ending features a surreal battle reminiscent of earlier titles like Underworld, emphasizing abstract representations rather than traditional combat.

• In contrast to sequels where Shodan is defeated through violence, System Shock offers a cerebral showdown that connects player consciousness with the AI's.

Final Moments and Player Experience

• Players face Shodan in an abstract cyberspace environment; her representation diverges from typical humanoid forms seen in other media.

• The game's conclusion involves a unique mechanic where pixels disappear as players engage with Shodan, culminating in an immersive experience that breaks the fourth wall.

• This innovative ending left a lasting impression on players, highlighting how few narrative-driven games achieve such impactful conclusions.

Transitioning to New Projects

1995: The Birth of a New Studio

Introduction to the Studio

• The studio began operations around 1995, marking a significant development in both music and film production.

• It featured an interactive wing co-owned by Microsoft, emphasizing its innovative approach.

James Blackley's Vision

• James Blackley played a crucial role in establishing the studio, having previously worked on notable projects like Flight Unlimited and System Shock.

• His vision was to create a creativity-driven environment where developers had the freedom to explore their ideas.

Trespasser: A Game of Innovation

Initial Impressions

• The game Trespasser was initially perceived as an ambitious project due to its unique mechanics involving hand controls.

• During interviews, there was excitement about the game's experimental nature and potential for innovation.

Design Trajectory

• Discussion centered on how Trespasser fits into the design evolution from System Shock, particularly regarding cognitive dissonance reduction.

• Similarities were noted between both games, such as narrative elements involving depopulated settings with traces of past inhabitants.

Innovative Mechanics in Trespasser

Character Development

• Unlike System Shock, Trespasser introduced a voiced female protagonist, enhancing player connection to the character.

User Interface Evolution

• The UI evolved significantly; Trespasser aimed for complete immersion by removing traditional HUD elements entirely.

Unrealized Potential and Ecosystem Dynamics

AI Ecosystem Concept

• There were plans for dinosaurs in Trespasser to behave more like animals within an ecosystem rather than mere adversaries.

Gameplay Dynamics

• The AI's behavior was designed so that dinosaurs would react based on hunger levels and environmental interactions, creating unpredictable gameplay moments.

Influences from Other Games

Interactions Among Creatures

• Inspiration was drawn from other games like Doom where creatures could turn against each other, adding depth to gameplay dynamics.

Challenges in Development

How Did Trespasser Shape Game Design?

The Legacy and Reception of Trespasser

• The game is noted for its unrealized ideas and awkward interface, leading to a mixed reception. The speaker questions how the game turned out and acknowledges that it didn't work out as intended.

• Discussion revolves around the game's legacy, questioning what it achieved in terms of design ideals and whether other games learned from its experiences.

• Trespasser was innovative for its time, featuring an outdoor shooter environment with a female protagonist. It combined physics gameplay with traditional shooting mechanics.

• The challenges faced during development included issues with physics implementation, which remain underutilized in 3D gaming due to inherent design difficulties.

• Rendering outdoor scenes posed significant technological challenges, particularly during the transition to dedicated graphics cards, impacting the final product's quality.

Player Experience and Interaction

• The speaker shares personal experiences from teaching game design students about UI issues using Trespasser as an example.

• A memorable moment occurred when students engaged with the game; their reactions highlighted how clumsy controls created a sense of realism in confronting dinosaurs.

• Despite its flaws, there were moments where gameplay felt immersive and engaging. Players experienced genuine tension while interacting with the environment.

Development Insights

• A downloadable demo of Trespasser performed better than the final release due to lessons learned post-launch regarding technology utilization.

• While the game had significant lows, it also featured remarkable highs when elements worked well together, showcasing potential despite many shortcomings.

Industry Reflection

• At GDC discussions highlighted that although Trespasser was flawed, it attempted innovative approaches rather than producing a generic shooter that would be forgotten over time.

• There’s acknowledgment that developers should take risks even if they lead to failures; this approach can foster creativity within the industry.

Game Development Insights and Authorship in Deus Ex

Transitioning from Gaming and Contributions to Deus Ex

• The speaker reflects on their career path, mentioning a break from gaming after working on Clive Barker's "Undying" before returning for contract work on "Deus Ex."

• They contributed to the last six months of development on "Deus Ex," focusing on writing and mission logic.

• The game underwent significant changes during its final stages, requiring extensive work to ensure coherent gameplay and mission design.

Authorship and Collaboration in Game Design

• Discussion centers around authorship in "Deus Ex," often attributed to Warren Spector, raising questions about the collaborative nature of game development.

• The writing was primarily done by Sheldon Pacotti, who established the game's dark narrative voice, while player agency is a hallmark of Spector's design philosophy.

• Harvey Smith also played a crucial role as lead designer, indicating that multiple voices contributed to the game's vision.

Supporting Vision vs. Leading Vision

• The speaker describes their role as supportive rather than visionary; they aimed to align with Sheldon's writing style while contributing to mission logic.

• They specifically worked on the Hong Kong mission, which was complex but ultimately successful in execution.

Contributions Beyond Deus Ex

• The speaker mentions credits for dialogue writing in both "Deus Ex 2" and "Thief 3," emphasizing their limited involvement beyond dialogue contributions.

• They express unfamiliarity with how "Thief 3" turned out but share enthusiasm for "Deus Ex 2."

Defense of Deus Ex 2

• Despite mixed reviews for "Deus Ex 2," the speaker defends it by acknowledging technical challenges due to engine changes but highlights its engaging gameplay.

• Smaller level designs were intended to create denser interactions between game elements, leading to unique gameplay experiences.

Exploring Emergent Gameplay and Design Intentions

The Role of Small Levels in Game Design

• Discussion on how smaller game levels can lead to unexpected player interactions, allowing for creativity beyond the designers' original intentions.

• Example given about player-placed mines potentially leading to emergent gameplay, where players can manipulate physics objects in innovative ways.

Intentionality and Authorship in Game Development

• Exploration of the ambiguity surrounding design intentions; how players may perceive designer goals versus actual gameplay experiences.

• Reference to Harvey's talk on emergent gameplay, highlighting the complexity of understanding a designer's intent through player experience.

Recent Projects and Contributions

• Mention of involvement in various projects including pre-production work at Arcane Studios and contributions to Disney's new Mickey game.

• Clarification that current roles involve writing and modeling narrative choices rather than full-time development due to other commitments.

Narrative Modeling and Aesthetic Direction

• Insight into developing a coherent theory around narrative modeling within games, emphasizing the importance of choice in storytelling.

• Acknowledgment of past mistakes as learning opportunities that contribute to a deeper understanding of narrative design.

Reflections on System Shock and Industry Challenges

• Recognition of "System Shock" as a significant project that showcased innovation and harmonious integration of game elements.

• Expression of sadness over not being able to engage fully in game development cycles due to industry demands, which are often grueling for writers.

Current Landscape for Writers in Game Development

• Commentary on the evolving role of writers within game development teams; many prefer hiring consultants rather than full-time writers.

Exploring the Joy of Collaborative Writing

The Motivation Behind Creative Work

• The speaker emphasizes that their engagement in creative work stems from enjoyment and collaboration, highlighting the excitement of meetings and teamwork.

• They express a desire to dedicate more time to this collaborative effort if they had multiple versions of themselves available for such pursuits.

Writing for Video Games vs. Traditional Media

• The speaker discusses the unique challenges of writing for video games, noting that text is not the primary focus; instead, visual elements take precedence.

• They explain that while text adds flavor and context to a game, it does not build worlds in the same way novels do, as games rely heavily on spatial interaction and system dynamics.

The Nature of Game Design

• The conversation shifts to how games are fundamentally about space and calculation rather than narrative alone, contrasting them with traditional storytelling mediums like novels or plays.