Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Build Confidence & Become Powerful | E232

Name: Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Build Confidence & Become Powerful | E232
Uploaded: 2023-03-23T08:00:08.000Z
Duration: 3 h 48 min 48 s

The Art of Seduction: Insights from Robert Greene

Understanding Seduction as Power

Robert Greene discusses seduction as a powerful form of influence, where individuals can persuade others without their conscious awareness. He emphasizes that seduction is akin to a mating ritual, which has evolved in the context of modern dating apps.

The Importance of Body Language

Greene highlights the significance of body language over words, asserting that while people may lie verbally, their physical gestures reveal true intentions. Mastering this non-verbal communication is crucial for understanding human psychology and building confidence.

Personal Struggles and Resilience

Greene shares his personal experience with a stroke in 2018, which left him partially paralyzed. This life-altering event forced him to confront the fragility of power and ability, urging listeners not to take their physical capabilities for granted.

Community Engagement and Growth Plans

The host expresses gratitude towards the community for its support in growing the show. They emphasize plans to expand content diversity and reach more audiences globally, encouraging viewers to subscribe for continued engagement.

Early Life Influences on Greene's Journey

Greene reflects on his childhood in Baldwin Hills, Los Angeles. He describes a middle-class upbringing with an introverted nature shaped by literature and early experiences with drugs during high school that influenced his perspective on human behavior.

Career Path Leading to "The 48 Laws of Power"

The Evolution of Power: Insights from Hollywood to Human Nature

The Painful Experiences in Hollywood

The speaker reflects on their painful experiences in Hollywood, describing a moment of catharsis where all the manipulative games and politicking they encountered came rushing out.

They draw parallels between modern power struggles and historical figures like Machiavelli, emphasizing that while fashion has changed, the essence of power dynamics remains timeless.

A conversation with a publisher sparks the idea for writing a book about these insights, leading to an offer to support the speaker financially while they write.

The Success of "The 48 Laws of Power"

The speaker shares their journey back to Los Angeles, borrowing money from parents to write a treatment for what would become "The 48 Laws of Power," which was well-received by the publisher.

They quantify the book's success, noting it has sold over 2 million copies in the U.S. and is experiencing unprecedented sales growth in 2023.

Despite initial slow sales, word-of-mouth recommendations and endorsements from celebrities helped propel its popularity into mainstream culture.

Cultural Impact and Personal Reflection

The book gained traction through various media appearances and endorsements from notable figures in hip-hop culture, such as Jay-Z and 50 Cent.

Reflecting on his feelings towards the book over time, the speaker acknowledges societal changes but maintains that human nature remains constant despite evolving contexts.

Understanding Power

The speaker emphasizes that their philosophy is not to dwell on past regrets; instead, they view "The 48 Laws of Power" as a reflection of timeless human behavior.

They express concern about young people's interpretation of life as solely about manipulation and politics, prompting them to write subsequent works addressing broader themes.

Defining Power

In defining power, the speaker argues it transcends political figures; rather than being about authority or control over others, it's fundamentally an emotional state tied to self-understanding and personal influence.

The Nature of Power and Control

The Corruption of Powerlessness

The idea that "absolute power corrupts, but absolute powerlessness corrupts even more" suggests that feeling powerless can lead to negative behaviors such as passive aggression and manipulation in an attempt to regain control over one's life.

Understanding Power Dynamics

The speaker reflects on their early career experiences, highlighting the importance of recognizing the games people play in professional environments to avoid naivety and mistakes.

They emphasize that one does not need to crush enemies but should understand human nature and ego dynamics to navigate workplace relationships effectively.

Self-Control as a Key Element

Acknowledging that everyone has insecurities, including those in positions of power, is crucial for maintaining healthy interactions without inadvertently causing offense.

The speaker argues that self-control is essential; if one cannot manage themselves, they cannot hope to influence or lead others effectively.

The Role of Appearances

There’s a discussion about how appearances matter in social interactions. People often judge based on external factors rather than internal qualities.

The speaker advocates for understanding this reality while also acknowledging the desire for idealism; however, they stress the importance of adapting one's appearance strategically.

Keeping Up Appearances vs. Authenticity

Reflecting on guests from various industries who struggle with maintaining appearances at the cost of personal happiness highlights a tension between public persona and private fulfillment.

Understanding the Duality of Social Roles and Personal Identity

The Actor's Mask in Social Interactions

When entering public spaces, individuals often adopt a social persona, shedding it in private settings to reveal their true selves. This transition is natural and does not typically lead to identity crises.

Modern society lacks a clear separation between social roles and personal identity, leading many to conflate their public personas with their true selves.

The speaker shares an anecdote about 50 Cent, illustrating how public figures often play roles that differ from their genuine personalities; he found 50 Cent to be kind and approachable despite his tough public image.

Humans are inherently actors who learn early on to navigate different social roles. Embracing this aspect can add enjoyment to life but should not confuse one's core identity.

The pressure of maintaining a cheerful facade in professions like news presenting can feel disingenuous; however, if one enjoys the role, it may not feel burdensome.

Navigating Professional Relationships

A key insight from "The 48 Laws of Power" emphasizes caution in trusting friends too much within professional contexts; emotional ties can cloud judgment when hiring or collaborating.

Relying on friends for professional partnerships can lead to poor decisions due to emotional entanglements; it's crucial to prioritize practical results over personal relationships.

Sometimes the best collaborators are those outside your friend circle; approaching former adversaries with openness can yield unexpected positive outcomes and motivation.

Concealing Intentions: A Strategic Approach

The discussion shifts towards the balance of revealing intentions in business versus keeping them concealed. Different strategies apply depending on context—whether inspiring a team or protecting ideas from competition.

There are two schools of thought regarding sharing intentions: one advocates for secrecy to avoid being copied or attacked, while another suggests transparency fosters support and collaboration.

Understanding Power Dynamics in Business

The Importance of Vision and Strategy

Sharing a clear vision with your team is crucial for alignment and motivation, especially when aiming for long-term goals.

In today's competitive business landscape, transparency can sometimes be counterproductive; revealing too much can lead to vulnerabilities.

Competitors are always watching; it's essential to be aware that they may attempt to steal ideas or undermine your business.

The Role of Deception in Strategy

Strategic deception can be a powerful tool; misleading competitors about your true intentions can create advantages.

Creating an air of mystery around your plans keeps competitors on their toes and uncertain about your next moves.

Balancing Transparency and Concealment

It's important to have a strategic mindset regarding what information to share; sometimes concealing plans is necessary for success.

Engaging in power dynamics is common; everyone has elements of manipulation or "shadows" within them.

Historical Examples of Strategic Leadership

Figures like Mahatma Gandhi exemplify strategic thinking alongside moral conviction, using nonviolent resistance effectively against colonial powers.

Gandhi's Salt March was a calculated move designed to sway public opinion by showcasing the injustices faced by Indians under British rule.

Impactful Civil Rights Strategies

Martin Luther King Jr. also employed strategic planning during the Civil Rights Movement, understanding the importance of public perception.

King's decision to involve children in protests aimed at shocking the American public into recognizing civil rights abuses was both bold and strategic.

Human Nature and Power Games

Both Gandhi and King had personal flaws but were brilliant strategists who understood human nature's complexities, including traits like narcissism and self-interest.

Understanding Narcissism and the Human Dark Side

The Nature of Narcissism

Acknowledges that while some individuals exhibit extreme narcissistic traits, everyone possesses a degree of narcissism. Emphasizes humility and self-awareness regarding one's flaws.

Discusses the commonality of human flaws, urging listeners to abandon feelings of moral superiority and recognize their own dark sides.

Self-Awareness and Change

Highlights the importance of recognizing personal irrationality and aggressive instincts as a pathway to change. Awareness is crucial for managing narcissistic tendencies.

Questions whether being a narcissist is inherently good or bad, suggesting that it can be both depending on context. Recognizes the potential harm caused by extreme narcissism.

Origins of Narcissism

Explores how childhood experiences shape narcissistic traits, particularly when children feel neglected or unloved. This can lead to compensatory behaviors in adulthood.

References psychological theories explaining that early emotional neglect can result in an adult's need for external validation through dramatic behavior.

Developing Self-Esteem

Describes how individuals who lack self-esteem due to childhood experiences may react with anger when criticized, leading to what is termed "narcissistic rage."

Emphasizes the necessity of developing self-love and esteem during childhood; those who fail may struggle with interpersonal relationships later in life.

Channeling Dark Traits Positively

Suggests transforming self-love into empathy as one matures. Encourages using awareness of one's dark side constructively rather than avoiding it.

Advocates for channeling negative emotions into positive actions or causes, illustrating how personal struggles can inspire creativity and societal contributions.

Confronting One's Shadow

Urges individuals not to shy away from their darker aspects but instead embrace them as sources of creativity and motivation.

The Impact of Early Experiences on Relationships with Power

The Role of Early Years

The speaker discusses how early experiences shape one's relationship with power, noting that individuals who are kind often have secure and loving childhoods.

Attachment theory is introduced, categorizing parental attachment into four types, with the ideal being a nurturing environment that fosters independence.

The worst attachment type involves abandonment or abuse, which can severely impact a child's development but also highlights children's resilience.

Resilience in Adversity

Despite difficult backgrounds, some individuals like Malcolm X and Marilyn Monroe demonstrate charisma and resourcefulness stemming from their challenging upbringings.

Marilyn Monroe's quest for love is emphasized; her upbringing as an orphan led her to seek validation through her public persona.

Charismatic figures such as John F. Kennedy also emerged from harsh childhood conditions, suggesting that adversity can foster strength and determination.

Seduction as a Form of Power

The discussion shifts to seduction as a high form of power where one influences others by making them feel pleasure and excitement.

Unlike direct commands that may breed resentment, subtlety in approach allows for greater influence over others' decisions.

Qualities of a Great Seducer

The speaker distinguishes between "cold" seducers (self-serving motives) and "warm" seducers (mutual engagement), advocating for the latter as more effective.

A great seducer is described as outer-directed—focused on understanding the other person rather than self-consciousness during interactions.

Understanding Others Deeply

Effective seduction involves listening attentively to understand what others desire or need, creating a sense of validation and recognition.

This deep understanding allows one to reflect back what they learn about the other person, enhancing connection and rapport.

Modern Challenges in Seduction

The complexities of modern dating are acknowledged; relationships today may be more complicated than in the past due to various societal changes.

Understanding the Anti-Seducer

Defining the Anti-Seducer

The anti-seducer is characterized by qualities such as preaching and moralizing, which create a sense of moral superiority that detracts from pleasure and connection.

A sanctimonious attitude in contexts meant for enjoyment disrupts the dynamic of equality necessary for attraction.

Generosity vs. Selfishness

True generosity extends beyond financial aspects; it includes sharing time, energy, and spirit with others. Being stingy or self-focused is highly unattractive.

Insecure individuals often focus on themselves during interactions, which can be perceived as anti-seductive.

Vulnerability vs. Insecurity

Vulnerability is seen as seductive because it allows openness to influence from others, while insecurity creates barriers that repel attraction.

Seduction involves letting go of ego and defensiveness to allow another person into one's world, requiring a degree of vulnerability.

The Nature of Attraction

People are drawn to vulnerability; it evokes protective instincts and fosters connection. This contrasts sharply with the fear evoked by someone who appears invulnerable.

The appeal of vulnerable beings (like puppies or children) lies in their need for protection, which elicits nurturing responses from others.

Understanding Insecurity

Insecurity leads to self-absorption that hinders genuine connections; sensing another's insecurity can make one feel awkward or insecure themselves.

Confidence in oneself tends to bring out positive qualities in others, whereas insecurity creates discomfort in social situations.

Dating Advice for Singles

Effort in Romance

Many people mistakenly believe love should come effortlessly; however, romance requires intentional effort akin to biological mating rituals observed in animals.

Presentation Matters

The Art of Seduction: Understanding Attraction

The Importance of Presentation on Dates

Emphasizes the significance of dressing well for a date, suggesting that effort in appearance reflects respect and intention.

Discusses creativity in choosing date locations, advocating for unique and appealing spots rather than traditional romantic settings.

Critiques a friend's choice to use a discount code on a first date, labeling it as "anti-seductive" due to its implications about financial tightness.

Perceptions of Value and Spirit

Argues that being overly concerned with money can signal cheapness in spirit, which detracts from attraction.

Highlights seduction as a non-verbal language, where body language and actions communicate more than words.

Challenges Young Men Face in Modern Dating

Notes the struggles young men face in dating today, referencing statistics about sexual inactivity among them.

Questions whether societal changes have impacted men's ability to attract partners, particularly due to the influence of technology and internet culture.

The Role of Effort in Building Relationships

Attributes some dating challenges to unrealistic expectations set by internet pornography regarding sex and relationships.

Stresses that building real-life connections requires time, patience, and social skills that are often neglected when relying on digital interactions.

Learning Social Skills Through Experience

Describes how understanding body language is crucial for effective communication during dates; signals like leg crossing or hair touching convey interest.

Advocates for physical presence in social situations to develop interpersonal skills necessary for successful dating.

Confidence as a Key Seductive Quality

Encourages young men to embrace rejection as part of learning how to connect with others effectively.

Understanding Confidence and Body Language

The Nature of Confidence

True confidence cannot be taught; it must be experienced firsthand. Simply telling someone to be confident is ineffective.

The speaker reflects on their own experiences of rejection, noting that they were faking confidence during their teenage years, which was transparent to others.

Real confidence stems from genuine accomplishments and actions rather than bravado or pretense.

Building Genuine Confidence

Authentic confidence is based on real skills and achievements, not superficial traits like looks or charm.

At a young age (21-22), it's challenging to feel confident without a track record of success or unique abilities.

Success in various endeavors contributes significantly to building self-confidence over time.

The Role of Body Language

Body language plays a crucial role in communication; it often conveys more than words can express.

Subtle body language cues can indicate levels of confidence; for example, desperate individuals may exhibit certain behaviors in social settings.

Understanding Non-Verbal Communication

The speaker discusses how low-confidence individuals might display desperation through body language, such as leaning in too closely during conversations.

Children are naturally adept at reading body language due to survival instincts developed early in life, making them sensitive to authenticity.

Importance of Authenticity

Words can be deceptive; people may lie or flatter with their speech. In contrast, body language tends to reveal true feelings and intentions.

Understanding Body Language and Communication Skills

The Importance of Genuine Expressions

A real smile involves the entire face, with animated features and bright eyes, distinguishing it from a fake smile. Recognizing this difference is crucial in contexts like seduction and business.

Decoding Non-Verbal Cues

People often mask their true feelings; for instance, someone may verbally agree with an idea while actually disliking it. Mastering the language of body language helps in deciphering these cues.

The Role of Voice in Communication

Unlike facial expressions, one's voice can reveal emotions such as nervousness or lack of confidence. It's essential to pay attention to tone and speech speed as indicators of emotional state.

Body Language Indicators in Professional Settings

Observations during meetings show that employees often lean forward (indicating nervousness), while leaders tend to lean back (exuding confidence). This dynamic reflects power structures within groups.

Engagement Signals Through Posture

In social interactions, foot positioning can indicate interest; feet angled away suggest a desire to leave, while facing towards someone indicates engagement and willingness to converse.

Learning from Milton Erickson's Experience

Milton Erickson, who suffered from polio at a young age, became adept at reading body language due to his inability to communicate verbally. His experience highlights the importance of non-verbal communication skills.

Complexity of Body Language Mastery

Mastering body language is complex due to numerous factors like posture and eye movement. However, focusing on self-confidence can naturally enhance one’s non-verbal communication without overthinking every gesture.

Authenticity Over Monitoring

To avoid appearing unnatural or anxious, individuals should focus on feeling confident rather than constantly monitoring their body language. Authentic expressions are more impactful than forced ones.

The Shift Towards Skill Development

Understanding the Human Brain and Mastery

The Functioning of Neural Pathways

The human brain operates through neural pathways, which are created and strengthened with repetition. This process is essential for both addiction and skill development.

Repeated practice, such as shooting free throws, enhances motor skills by wiring the brain to perform tasks more efficiently over time.

The Concept of Mastery

Achieving mastery involves extensive practice (often cited as 10,000 hours), leading to a complex network of neural connections that fosters creativity and advanced performance in activities like chess or soccer.

Individuals who engage deeply in their fields can reach levels of expertise that seem superhuman; however, those reliant on instant gratification may struggle to develop skills.

Concerns About Modern Learning

There is a growing concern that society is losing touch with fundamental aspects of how the brain learns due to an emphasis on quick results rather than sustained effort.

Passion vs. Life Task

A common question about finding one's passion is addressed; it’s suggested that discovering your life task may be more important than simply identifying a passion.

The speaker expresses discomfort with the term "passion," arguing that true success requires enduring effort and overcoming boredom rather than relying solely on enthusiasm.

The Journey to Skill Development

Learning an instrument like piano involves tedious exercises initially; enjoyment comes after years of practice when proficiency develops.

An anecdote about Stevie Wonder illustrates how thousands of hours dedicated to practice lead to extraordinary skill, emphasizing patience over immediate passion.

Discovering Your Connection

It’s crucial for individuals, especially young people, to discover what they love doing early in life—this could range from physical skills to artistic talents.

Career Choices and Life's Task

The Importance of the 20s

The speaker reflects on early musical influences, emphasizing a deep connection to music from a young age.

The 20s are described as a crucial phase for career development; investing time in learning skills that resonate deeply can lead to significant personal growth by age 30.

A strong connection to one's work is essential; enduring tedious tasks becomes manageable when driven by passion and purpose.

Understanding Life's Task

True fulfillment comes from pursuing what one is meant to do; not engaging in this pursuit can lead to feelings of misery and alienation.

The concept of apprenticeship is introduced, highlighting the importance of early career choices and their long-term impact on mastery.

Choosing the Right Job

When starting out, prioritize jobs that offer substantial learning opportunities over higher pay; hands-on experience is invaluable.

Working closely with an entrepreneur or small team fosters responsibility and skill acquisition, which outweigh monetary benefits in early career stages.

Deep Observation in Apprenticeship

Emphasizes the need for "deep observation" rather than self-centered behavior when starting a new job; focus should be on understanding workplace dynamics.

Observing social codes, acceptable behaviors, and valuable skills within one's field is critical for effective learning during the apprenticeship phase.

Learning by Doing

Skills acquisition through practical experience is vital; historical context shows that skills were traditionally passed down through imitation and hands-on practice.

The Importance of Learning by Doing

The Role of Apprenticeships in Skill Development

In medieval Europe, apprenticeships lasted seven years, focusing on hands-on learning in trades like masonry and carpentry.

The brain is wired to learn through physical action rather than theoretical understanding; the connection between the brain and hands is crucial for skill acquisition.

Embracing Practical Experience

Engaging in practical activities fosters deeper learning compared to passive observation or discussion.

Personal Transformation After a Stroke

Life-Altering Experiences

The speaker recounts a stroke experienced in 2018, which fundamentally changed their life perspective and abilities.

Prior to the stroke, physical activity was integral to their daily routine; post-stroke, they faced paralysis on one side of their body.

Coping with New Realities

Adapting to new limitations required patience and acceptance; everyday tasks became challenging and time-consuming.

The experience led to a newfound appreciation for simple activities that were previously taken for granted, such as walking or swimming.

The Circumstances Surrounding the Stroke

Unforeseen Triggers

The stroke was caused by a wasp sting that led to complications with blood pressure medication taken afterward.

The Impact of a Stroke: A Personal Journey

The Circumstances Leading to the Stroke

The speaker reflects on how a blood clot led to their stroke, suggesting that various circumstances created a "perfect storm" for this event.

They recount the moment of the stroke while driving with their wife, who noticed something unusual about their face and insisted they pull over.

The speaker acknowledges that if the stroke had occurred four months later without their wife's presence, it could have been fatal.

Empathy and Understanding Post-Stroke

After experiencing the stroke, the speaker developed greater empathy towards others facing disabilities or health challenges.

They express an understanding of what it feels like to be dependent and helpless, drawing parallels with those living in poverty or struggling with long-term illnesses.

This newfound empathy is described as visceral rather than intellectual, highlighting a deeper emotional connection to suffering.

Psychological Struggles Following the Incident

Initially, there was a sense of delusion regarding recovery; the speaker believed they would quickly return to normal life within months.

As time passed without significant improvement, depression set in around one year post-stroke when reality hit hard.

The hardest part was realizing that recovery would take much longer than anticipated and dealing with feelings of loss regarding physical abilities.

Coping Strategies for Mental Well-being

Despite struggles with depression, the speaker found joy in writing and considers it essential for maintaining peace of mind.

They emphasize that material worries are not present in their current phase of life but acknowledge how different strokes can affect mental faculties more severely than physical ones.

Daily Practices for Maintaining Peace

Meditation has been a crucial practice for over 12 years; it's described as a daily ritual that calms intrusive thoughts and provides strength throughout the day.

Morning meditation involves connecting with nature and appreciating simple joys like sunlight and birdsong as grounding techniques against negative thoughts.

Understanding Happiness and Perspective

The Precarious Nature of Life

The speaker reflects on the fragility of life, emphasizing that many people are unaware of how precious it is to simply be alive and appreciate nature.

They draw comparisons with individuals facing severe hardships, such as those in Ukraine or Iran, which helps shift their perspective from self-pity to gratitude.

Strategies for Coping with Adversity

The speaker discusses personal strategies developed to combat narrow perspectives during tough times, highlighting the importance of gratitude and purpose in achieving happiness.

They acknowledge ongoing struggles post-stroke, admitting they have not mastered their challenges but are making progress day by day.

Importance of Connection

The role of connection is emphasized; the speaker credits their spouse for providing essential support during recovery, noting that independence was significantly impacted.

They express feelings of guilt about relying on others but recognize the necessity of having someone to help navigate daily life challenges.

Appreciating Life's Simple Joys

The speaker shares insights about finding joy in small things, like observing others enjoying activities they can no longer partake in themselves.

They reflect on how taking simple pleasures for granted can lead to a lack of appreciation until they are lost.

Insights into Human Nature

Discussing human nature, the speaker contemplates whether their understanding has made them more loving or optimistic towards humanity amidst its flaws.

Reflections on Human Nature and Hope

The Role of Perception in Reality

The speaker emphasizes that the mind creates perceptions, suggesting that letting go of judgment can lead to a more beautiful understanding of the world.

Acknowledges a pessimistic view on human nature, noting how technology often twists and degrades original intentions, leading to concerns about the future.

Youth and Rebellion

Reflecting on personal experiences from youth, the speaker recalls feelings of anger towards societal values during their formative years.

Observes that young people today (Gen Z) are also uncomfortable with current realities and possess a rebellious spirit that could drive change.

Seeds of Hope for the Future

The speaker expresses hope in young people's potential to seek real experiences over virtual ones, indicating a desire for authenticity.

Shares a memorable dream about a hopeful future in 2072 where humanity has found happiness and purpose.

Personal Happiness and Life Changes

Discusses internal conflict between pessimism and hope while reflecting on generational responsibility for current global issues.

Responding to a question about happiness, the speaker identifies their happiest moment at age 38 when they published "The 48 Laws of Power," marking a significant life transformation.

Lasting Impact of Success

Describes the dramatic shift from struggle to success as intoxicating but acknowledges that this high has diminished over time.

Remembers past struggles vividly, which contributes to an ongoing sense of gratitude despite not feeling the same intensity of happiness now.

Journey Through Life's Experiences

Reflects on how early success can be overwhelming if one is unprepared for it; contrasts this with their own journey through hardship before achieving recognition.

Concludes by expressing appreciation for life's journey and reminiscing about significant moments like meeting Stevie Wonder as a child.

Acknowledgment of Difficult Topics

The interviewer praises the speaker's willingness to confront dark subjects in their work, highlighting its importance in addressing human experience.

Interview Insights and Product Recommendations

Appreciation for Interview Skills

The speaker expresses gratitude towards Stephen, highlighting his exceptional interviewing skills. They note that after conducting thousands of podcasts, they can distinguish between great and mediocre interviewers, placing Stephen in the elite category due to his insightful questions and attentive listening.

Sponsorship Announcement: Blue Jeans

The host acknowledges Blue Jeans as a sponsor of the podcast, describing it as an online video conferencing tool that offers high-quality meetings without common glitches found in other platforms.

A new feature called "Blue Jeans Basic" is introduced, which provides a free version of their video conferencing service. This includes immersive video experiences with high fidelity audio and video capabilities.

The speaker emphasizes the security features of Blue Jeans Basic, allowing users to collaborate confidently while enjoying a smooth meeting experience.

Personal Health Journey and Product Endorsement

The host shares insights from recent discussions on health, emphasizing the importance of incorporating superfoods and green vegetables into one's diet.

Introduction of Huel's new product "Daily Greens," which contains 91 superfoods and plant-based ingredients aimed at meeting dietary needs conveniently. The speaker mentions being an investor in Huel and serving on its board.