The Pat Metheny Interview

Interview with Pat Metheny

Introduction and Background

• Rick Beato introduces Pat Metheny, expressing his long-standing desire to interview him since the inception of his channel.

• Beato shares a personal anecdote about seeing Metheny perform multiple times, highlighting a memorable show at the Village Vanguard in 1984.

• Metheny praises Beato's unique approach to music analysis, noting its value for musicians and listeners alike.

Early Influences and Career Beginnings

• The conversation shifts to December 1975, discussing Metheny's early career and significant influences, particularly Gary Burton.

• Metheny reflects on the recording process for his first solo album and the atmosphere in the studio during that time.

• He describes how Gary Burton's band was pivotal in shaping his musical direction, likening it to being part of a legendary group like The Beatles.

Joining Gary Burton’s Band

• Metheny recounts how he aspired to join Burton's quartet and eventually got the opportunity after performing at a festival in Wichita, Kansas.

• He emphasizes the importance of learning from experienced musicians like Burton, who provided constructive feedback on his playing style.

Development as a Musician

• Discussing his growth as an artist, Metheny mentions how he submitted original compositions to Burton for critique.

• He recalls how their collaboration led to him creating music that felt authentic and distinct from what he had previously written.

Insights on Composition

• Metheny shares advice from Burton regarding timing for releasing one's first record—emphasizing patience until one is ready to create something truly meaningful.

• He discusses the rigorous standards set by Burton as a bandleader which helped him refine his skills through consistent practice and performance feedback.

The Formation of a Unique Band

Early Collaborations and Influences

• The speaker discusses the potential collaboration with renowned musicians from ECM, including Jack DeJohnette and Dave Holland, but is encouraged to utilize his existing band featuring Jaco Pastorius.

• Reflecting on past experiences in Florida, the speaker shares how he formed a close friendship with Jaco while performing as part of a pit band for female impersonators.

Transition to Boston

• After moving to Boston to join Gary, the speaker invites Jaco and drummer Bob Moses to play trio gigs together, establishing their identity as a real band.

• Gary encourages the use of this established band for recording due to their familiarity with the tunes and unique sound.

Recording Experience in Europe

Jaco's First European Trip

• The speaker highlights that Jaco had never traveled internationally before this trip, sharing a bond over their shared sobriety.

• Upon arriving in Europe, Jaco experiences jet lag but is excited about being there; he spends his first night exploring Stuttgart instead of resting.

Studio Challenges

• The next day, after waking up late, they rush to record without having all their preferred equipment; both musicians express concern about achieving their desired sound.

• Despite initial challenges with unfamiliar studio gear, they quickly begin recording familiar tunes with minimal takes required.

Creative Process and Production Insights

New Compositions and Overdubbing

• They work on various tracks during the session; one new piece called "Midwestern Night's Dream" emerges from experimentation with odd tunings on a 12-string guitar.

• The speaker expresses excitement about overdubbing for the first time but feels uncertain about how it will turn out compared to live performances.

Role of Producer Gary

• Gary serves as an uncredited producer throughout the recording process; his contributions are deemed significant despite not receiving formal recognition.

• While recording sessions proceed smoothly with few takes needed per song, there’s little feedback beyond affirmations like “sounds good.”

Reflections on Performance Quality

Discrepancies Between Live Sound and Recording

• After completing recordings, the speaker reflects on feeling disconnected from what was captured in the studio compared to their live performances.

Exploring Edits and Unique Musical Language

The Process of Editing Music

• Discussion about the challenges faced when editing music, including a humorous moment that was captured during recording.

• Reflection on the unique language used in early music, which was specific to a small group of people.

Understanding Musical Concepts

• Explanation of musical terms like triads and inversions, emphasizing their importance in conveying harmony.

• Mention of "Falling Grace" by Steve Swallow as a pivotal tune that influenced harmonic thinking beyond traditional linear approaches.

Harmonic Exploration

• Insights into how different angles can be applied to chord changes, showcasing the complexity and depth of harmony.

• Personal practice involving playing "Falling Grace" in all 12 keys for hours, highlighting its infinite possibilities.

Influence of Other Musicians

• Recognition of the impact that musicians like Swallow and Gary had on performance style and harmonic understanding.

• Description of Swallow's soloing style based on inversions, illustrating an innovative approach to explaining harmony.

Communicating Through Harmony

• Discussion on how this unique harmonic vocabulary communicates differently than typical jazz, making it more accessible to audiences.

• Emphasis on the guitar's role in creating communal music experiences, such as strumming chords around a campfire.

Rhythmic Strumming Techniques

• Reference to specific recordings where rhythmic strumming is utilized effectively within modern drumming contexts.

• Acknowledgment of the difficulty in finding musicians who can execute this rhythmic strumming style well.

Traditional vs. Innovative Approaches

• Contrast between traditional rhythm guitar functions and more innovative approaches that blend various styles.

• Personal reflections on musical influences from bluegrass and country genres shaping individual soundscapes.

Conclusion: Personal Resonance with Music

Missouri Uncompromised: Musical Insights

Exploration of Musical Elements

• Discussion on the use of major triads in blues music, highlighting their significance in creating musical exposition.

• Reference to Gary's validation regarding the direction of "Bright Side's Life," indicating a unique response to Jocko's contributions.

• Notable differences in Jocko's playing style compared to other records, emphasizing its uniqueness and adaptability.

Collaboration Dynamics

• The speaker reflects on their candid feedback to Jocko, suggesting a need for fewer notes and more clarity in chord functions.

• Acknowledgment of Jocko’s exceptional musicianship while noting the lack of pushback he received from others, contrasting with the speaker’s approach.

Friendship and Creative Tension

• Insight into the strong friendship between the speaker and Jocko, marked by mutual stubbornness and deep discussions about music.

• Description of Moses as an underrated drummer who contributed significantly to their collaboration dynamics.

Sales and Conceptual Changes

• Overview of record sales for "Bright Side's Life" (900 copies) and "Watercolors" (700 copies), indicating a decline yet persistence in creative endeavors.

• Reflection on how "Bright Side's Life" was not well-received but led to another opportunity for recording, showcasing resilience in artistic pursuits.

New Collaborations

• Introduction of Lyle as a new collaborator for "Watercolors," highlighting his previous experience with ECM records.

Collaboration and Innovation in Music

Early Collaborations and Influences

• The speaker reflects on their early collaborations, particularly with Abrahart, who was part of the first record they worked on with Gary. They developed a close friendship despite age differences.

• The speaker mentions playing with Jaco Pastorius, highlighting an intrinsic connection between their musical styles and approaches.

Creative Process and Improvisation

• Discussing the album "Watercolors," the speaker emphasizes that improvisation played a significant role in their music creation process.

• The speaker identifies as both a musician and band leader, focusing on creating environments for collaboration while inviting talented musicians to contribute.

Musical Evolution and Identity

• A German jazz critic posed a thought-provoking question about whether the speaker is "the last old guy or the first new guy," prompting reflection on their unique position in music history.

• The speaker expresses a commitment to innovation, inspired by contemporaries like Gary Burton and Jaco Pastorius, who redefined how instruments were played.

Instrumentation and Sound Exploration

• The discussion shifts to the need for musicians to invent new sounds; this became essential around 1980 as musical landscapes began changing.

• The speaker elaborates on experimenting with guitar tunings, noting that each tuning suggests different possibilities but requires extensive practice to master fully.

Unique Techniques and Equipment

• They describe using unconventional methods such as placing guitars on stands to create distinct soundscapes during performances.

• An encounter with Lexicon led to exploring digital delay effects, which transformed live sound experiences by spreading audio across multiple amps.

Exploring Improvisation Techniques

The Concept of 12-String Guitar in Improvisation

• The speaker discusses their approach to playing a 12-string guitar, envisioning it in an orchestral context while seeking a system for improvisation.

• They explain the tuning of the strings, noting that all but one are E strings, which allows for unique improvisational opportunities.

• The speaker emphasizes the balance between structured tunes and improvisational fills within their music.

Insights on "April Wind" from the First Metheny Group Album

• A discussion about the song "April Wind," questioning whether it features both a 12-string and electric guitar or just one instrument.

• Clarification that the primary instrument is a Nashville-strung Guild guitar, which offers more precision than traditional 12-string guitars.

• Mention of studio limitations at that time, where recordings were often completed in two days with minimal overdubs.

Harmonic Language and Modal Interchange

• The speaker highlights a specific moment in "April Wind" where modal interchange occurs, particularly transitioning from D minor to D Dorian.

• They express admiration for how this harmonic language was distinct among guitarists during that era.

Understanding Melody as an Improviser

• Acknowledgment of the speaker's exceptional melodic improvisation skills and their unique structural approach to developing motifs.

• Discussion on melody being less academically defined compared to harmony and rhythm; it's often misunderstood as merely pretty or memorable.

Development of Melodic Ideas

• The speaker critiques conventional definitions of melody, suggesting that even chaotic sounds can be transcribed as melodies despite lacking beauty.

Musical Connections and Melodic Development

Influences and Models in Music

• The speaker reflects on the challenge of following complex musical ideas, citing Ornette Coleman as a musician who often needed to explain his concepts.

• Mentions influential musicians such as Lester Young, Clifford Brown, Stan Getz, Max Roach, and Wes Montgomery, highlighting their unique approaches to melody and improvisation.

• Emphasizes Wes Montgomery's ability to create seamless transitions in music that allow for extended melodic phrases over many choruses.

The Essence of Melody

• Discusses how melody is not just about notes but also about flow and connection between ideas; likens it to a conversation where one idea leads naturally into another.

• Describes the importance of illuminating interesting musical ideas for listeners, akin to sharing an exciting personal experience.

Rhythm's Role in Melody

• Explains that rhythmic ideas are crucial for creating phrases in music; they help bind motifs together.

• Highlights a specific acoustic guitar solo from "Going Ahead," noting its natural tension creation and dynamic playing despite simple chord changes.

Complexity in Jazz Improvisation

• Points out that many jazz players struggle with complex chord progressions like the bridge of "James," which can be deceptively challenging.

• Reflects on how listeners may underestimate the difficulty of certain tunes while acknowledging personal experiences with this misconception.

Mastery Through Practice

• Compares solos by different musicians over challenging bridges, emphasizing the effort required to navigate complex changes effectively.

Musical Development and Feel

The Complexity of Musical Composition

• The discussion begins with the transition from C7 sus to F# major 13, highlighting the juxtaposition in the A part and moving triads in the B part, emphasizing the song's complexity and satisfaction when played well.

Importance of Rhythm and Time

• The conversation shifts to melodic development, linking it to rhythm. The speaker stresses that while melody is crucial, playing in great time is equally important for musical expression.

Feel Over Technicality

• Emphasizing feel over technical precision, it's noted that even if a musician plays wrong notes, as long as they have great feel (like Jerry Bergonzi), their performance can still resonate positively.

Universal Nature of Feel

• The speaker reflects on interactions with young musicians who often focus on complex techniques rather than mastering basic rhythms like quarter notes. This foundational skill is deemed essential for effective musical expression.

Core Principles of Music

• It’s highlighted that superficial aspects of music can distract from fundamental principles. Feel is identified as paramount; without it, all other elements become less impactful.

The Role of Personal Experience in Music

Influence of Family Background

• A personal anecdote about the speaker's son illustrates how being surrounded by musicians fosters an innate sense of feel for music, despite not pursuing it professionally.

Distinction Between Knowledge and Feel

• There’s a contrast drawn between musicians who possess extensive knowledge but lack feel versus those who may not know much yet have an inherent ability to connect emotionally through music.

Collaboration with Great Musicians

Unique Connection with Charlie Haden

• Reflecting on collaborations with Charlie Haden, it's noted that his incredible ear and feel allowed him to complement any performance seamlessly without losing musical integrity.

Memorable Performances at Village Vanguard

• A memorable gig at Village Vanguard featuring Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins is discussed. The unique connection among these musicians provided a distinct freedom in their performances that was unparalleled compared to other collaborations.

Recording Quality vs Live Performance

Discrepancy Between Live Gigs and Recordings

• There's a sentiment expressed regarding recorded representations not capturing the true essence of live performances. Despite acknowledging some good moments on record, it's felt they don't reflect the depth experienced during live gigs.

Desire for Authentic Representation

Musical Connections and Personal Reflections

The Impact of Collaboration

• The speaker reflects on the underrepresentation of a band, expressing admiration for Billy, whom they miss daily.

• Touring with Billy and Charlie was enjoyable; their long history together created a comedic dynamic that was entertaining to witness.

• Despite an 18-year age difference, the speaker felt a unique connection with Charlie, highlighting their shared backgrounds from nearby towns.

Unique Musical Experiences

• A notable moment in their collaboration is captured on Josh Redman’s record "Wish," where they explored improvisation by creating new changes while maintaining a blues form.

• This creative freedom in music-making is rare; the speaker compares it to experiences Charlie had with Keith Jarrett, emphasizing its uniqueness.

Sound and Synergy

• The synergy between the speaker and Charlie allowed them to blend into one sound during performances, regardless of whether they played electric or acoustic instruments.

• The motivation behind "Song X" was to reunite Charlie and Renee after a decade apart, showcasing the importance of collaboration in music.

Reflection on Past Works

• Discussion shifts to "Phase Dance," the first official Pat Metheny Group album, which became a staple opener for shows over decades.

• The speaker acknowledges frequent performances of "Phase Dance" but admits not revisiting old records often.

Musicianship and Growth

• Many musicians tend not to reflect on past achievements; the speaker shares that they prefer moving forward rather than dwelling on previous successes.

• They emphasize starting each performance from scratch, focusing on continuous improvement rather than resting on past laurels.

Understanding Music's Mechanics

• The speaker discusses how some talented musicians plateau while others continue growing through constant effort and exploration of music's intricacies.

• They believe preparation meets opportunity is crucial for success; consistent practice has led them to become significantly better over time.

Personal Choices in Performance

• Reflecting on early experiences with indulgent musicians influenced their decision never to drink or use drugs before performing.

Reflections on Musical Journey and Preparation

The Benefits of Experience

• The speaker reflects on their 50-year journey in music, noting the benefits of longevity in the field compared to peers who have taken different paths.

• Acknowledges that some friends from similar backgrounds are no longer alive, emphasizing the value of perseverance in music.

Preparation and Practice

• Discusses the importance of preparation, which includes mastering material across various keys and instruments (piano, guitar).

• Shares a personal practice habit of not eating before gigs to enhance performance, despite potential downsides.

Compulsion vs. Productivity

• Highlights a thin line between productivity and mental illness; acknowledges this complexity in their creative process.

• Mentions Steve Rodby as a significant teacher who described them as "compulsively productive," indicating a balance between compulsion and reverence for music.

Awareness in Music Creation

• Stresses the need for astute awareness in both music and life; emphasizes listening as a crucial skill for musicians.

• Reflects on how deeper engagement with music has developed over time due to focused attention.

Success Factors in Music Career

• Discusses how successful musical collaborations transcend genres, highlighting the importance of connection among musicians.

• Attributes early successes to innovative orchestration techniques using emerging technology during performances.

The Role of Technology and Hard Work

Conceptual Foundation for Band Formation

• Describes the conceptual foundation behind forming bands connected to contemporary music technology advancements.

Investment in Equipment

• Shares personal anecdotes about investing savings into essential equipment like synthesizers that shaped their sound.

Touring Experience

A Journey Through Music and Touring

The Experience of Touring in a Band

• The speaker reflects on their mission as a band, emphasizing the fun and hard work involved in touring. They played long sets regardless of audience size, showcasing dedication to their craft.

• The speaker notes that even with small audiences, they delivered high-energy performances, indicating a commitment to quality regardless of circumstances.

• There was no initial focus on success; rather, the band was grateful for any gig opportunities available at the time.

Booking Gigs and Managing Tours

• Ted began booking gigs for Gary's band after noticing his talent while working as an agent. This led to the establishment of Ted's own agency in 1973.

• Touring without modern conveniences like cell phones required significant effort; contracts were handled manually, and financial transactions were straightforward yet challenging.

• The speaker served multiple roles during tours (tour manager, road manager), highlighting the often unseen complexities behind live performances that audiences may not appreciate.

Challenges Faced by Jazz Artists

• A discussion arises about why many jazz artists struggle with success compared to successful groups like Miles Davis Quintet or Weather Report. It suggests that consistent gigging is crucial for building a band's identity.

• Many jazz musicians prefer flexibility over being part of a cohesive group, which can hinder their development as artists within a defined musical vision.

Generational Perspectives on Music Performance

• The speaker feels they represent "the last old guy" perspective in music, valuing traditional performance methods over reading charts during live shows.

• There's an emphasis on maintaining authenticity in performance—comparing current practices with past legends like The Beatles who performed without written music.

Shifts in Musical Audience Dynamics

• A pivotal change occurred around 1980 when musicians began performing more for older generations rather than peers. This shift impacted how music was created and presented.

• The speaker expresses disdain for this trend towards formalism (e.g., suits and ties), preferring to play for friends rather than conforming to expectations set by previous generations.

Defining Musical Standards and Community Impact

• The conversation highlights the importance of transcending traditional boundaries within music communities while honoring influential figures like Miles Davis as benchmarks for artistic excellence.

Musicianship and Cultural Context

The Essence of Musicianship

• The speaker reflects on the influence of iconic musicians like Wes Montgomery, Lester Young, and Chick Corea, expressing a desire to embody their musicianship.

• Emphasizes the importance of understanding music theory and practice, highlighting personal satisfaction in mastering challenging pieces.

Cultural Challenges for Aspiring Musicians

• Discusses how contemporary young musicians face a culture that can be hostile to their aspirations, noting that this has always been a challenge.

• Shares personal experiences about being ahead of cultural recognition; many who appreciate one's work may not yet exist or be born.

Authenticity Over Popularity

• Encourages young musicians to focus on creating what they know is good rather than chasing trends or popular opinions.

Influences and Collaborations

Reflections on Keith Jarrett

• The speaker reminisces about listening to Keith Jarrett's records, particularly "Belonging," indicating admiration for his work.

• Mentions never having played with Jarrett but acknowledges past collaborations between their respective groups.

Unique Musical Contributions

• Describes Keith Jarrett as a unique figure in jazz with an unparalleled musical identity; highlights the significance of his American Quartet.

• Notes that while others may attempt to play his compositions, they often fall short compared to the original performances.

Creative Process and Performance

Songwriting Insights

• Discusses the brilliance of Jarrett's compositions as part of a significant songbook in jazz history.

Personal Recording Experience

• Reflecting on recording "Are You Going With Me" from the album Travels, he shares insights into capturing live performances across multiple gigs.

• Highlights a memorable performance at a Philadelphia club where everything aligned perfectly for an exceptional recording experience.

Composition in Real-Time

Exploring the Creative Process in Music

The Impact of New Instruments on Creativity

• Acquiring a new instrument, like a guitar, can spark fresh ideas and creativity, although the initial inspiration may fade over time.

• Early music technology limited editing capabilities; musicians had to work with what they played live, which fostered spontaneity and raw expression.

The Importance of Musical Structure

• Certain tunes become personal favorites for improvisation due to their melodic interest and structural signposts within chord progressions.

• A half-diminished chord can enhance melodic interest, while dominant chords provide opportunities for creative expression.

Learning from Influential Musicians

• Being around critical musicians like Gary has shaped the understanding of what makes a tune robust enough for repeated performances.

• Evaluating whether one would want to solo on a piece multiple times is crucial; this self-assessment helps avoid burnout on less engaging material.

Timelessness in Composition

• Compositions by Monk are highlighted as indestructible pieces that allow endless improvisation opportunities.

• Chick Corea's works also exemplify timeless compositions that can be adapted across various styles without losing their essence.

The Challenge of Major Chords in Jazz

• Major chords present unique challenges for jazz musicians, often likened to "kryptonite" due to their straightforward nature.

• The song "James" maintains diatonic harmony while pushing boundaries slightly, reflecting cultural connections and compositional intent.

Approaching Diatonic Harmony

• Many jazz players resort to pentatonic scales when faced with diatonic changes, which may lead to superficial playing rather than exploring harmonic depth.

Understanding Chord Progressions and Improvisation

The Importance of Chord Knowledge in Improvisation

• Emphasizes the necessity of being able to solo by playing the notes within chords, which is foundational to music's historical development.

• Discusses the concept of vertical versus horizontal improvisation, highlighting that without a solid grasp of chord structures, improvisation may lack depth.

Exploring Chord Structures

• Introduces specific chord progressions in the key of D, illustrating how to transition between various diatonic chords effectively.

• Details a sequence involving A, F#7 with a flat nine, B minor, and other inversions that create movement within the progression.

Techniques for Effective Playing

• Describes how familiarity with chord shapes allows for fluidity in performance; sometimes players may not consciously recognize what they are playing.

• Suggests starting with fundamental notes (roots and thirds) before moving into more complex arpeggiations during practice.

Simplifying Performance for Clarity

• Highlights that even simple arpeggiated chords can sound impressive on stage if executed well.

• Notes that understanding chord functions can allow musicians to perform effectively without needing additional accompaniment like bass or piano.

The Role of Understanding in Practice

• Stresses that comprehension of musical elements opens doors to creativity and effective practice strategies.

• Shares personal warm-up routines focused on automatic play rather than conscious thought, aiming for muscle memory synchronization before performances.

Reflections on Musical Development

• Reflecting on past experiences from early career stages where reliance on left-hand techniques evolved into greater right-hand proficiency through mentorship.

Understanding Guitar Dynamics and Techniques

The Importance of Volume Control

• The speaker reflects on their early experiences with guitar playing, realizing they were approaching it incorrectly, emphasizing the ongoing work on fundamentals.

• Discussion about the speaker's unique approach to volume control, noting that they keep their guitar's volume low while adjusting pickup distance from strings for better sound dynamics.

Comparing Instruments: Guitar vs. Saxophone

• A comparison is made between the dynamic range of a saxophone and a guitar; highlighting how a saxophonist can produce both very soft and extremely loud notes effectively.

• The speaker explains that when amplifying the guitar, maintaining an appropriate volume level is crucial to avoid overwhelming listeners.

Learning from Influential Players

• Mentions influential guitarists like Jim Hall and Jimmy Rainey who mastered dynamic range by controlling amp volume, allowing for more expressive playing.

• Emphasizes the importance of varying note volumes during play to create musical interest, comparing it to conversational tone variation.

Playing in Ensemble Settings

• When performing with a drummer, it's essential for the guitarist to balance their volume so as not to overpower or be overpowered by other instruments.

• Discusses starting volume settings (around halfway), which allows room for dynamic expression without losing control over sound quality.

Mastering Note Entry Techniques

• The speaker discusses different techniques for entering notes (sliding, hammering), stressing that timing is critical in achieving desired musical effects.

• Highlights how various approaches to reaching notes contribute significantly to overall musical expression and style.

Timing and Rhythm in Performance

• The importance of timing within beats is emphasized; players should be aware of where their notes fall rhythmically for effective phrasing.

Understanding the Challenges of Playing Guitar

The Complexity of Guitar Coordination

• The speaker discusses the unique challenges of playing guitar, emphasizing the need to coordinate multiple elements simultaneously, which may not be as pronounced in other instruments like trumpet or saxophone.

• Unlike piano, where hand positions are fixed, guitar allows for some flexibility between hands, complicating the learning process.

Insights from Mick Goodrick

• A conversation with guitarist Mick Goodrick reveals that one reason guitar is difficult is due to the ability to find the same note in multiple locations on the fretboard.

• The speaker humorously poses a philosophical question about playing poorly in isolation: "If you play really bad and there's nobody there to hear you, do you still suck?" This highlights self-perception in music.

Understanding Note Locations on Guitar

• Goodrick explains that each note can be played at approximately 2.8 different places on a guitar, making it challenging for players to read music effectively.