Marcelo Saín - Ex Ministro de Seguridad de Santa Fe | El Fin de la Metáfora

Interview with Marcelo Saín

In this interview, Marcelo Saín discusses the issues of violence and crime in Rosario, Argentina, focusing on the role of the state and law enforcement agencies.

Understanding Violence in Rosario

• Marcelo highlights the unique nature of narco violence in Rosario compared to other illegal markets in Argentina.

• The state in Rosario is described as a combination of incompetence and complicity with organized crime, lacking regulation over criminal activities.

• Prior to complicity, there is a significant issue of inefficiency within the Santa Fe state apparatus, leading to a lack of control over criminal phenomena.

Police Corruption and State Failures

• A large portion of the police force in Rosario was found engaged in administrative tasks rather than active policing duties due to systemic inefficiencies.

• Regulation by an inefficient Ministry of Public Prosecution further exacerbates issues as prosecutors lack competence to investigate complex crimes effectively.

Challenges Faced by Law Enforcement

This section delves into the challenges faced by law enforcement agencies and prosecutors when dealing with violent crimes and political interference.

Impediments to Investigations

• Prosecutors often prioritize violent crimes over those involving political figures due to immediate repercussions and political entanglements.

Investigating Power Structures in Criminal Cases

The speaker discusses the challenges faced by prosecutors investigating power structures in criminal cases, highlighting instances of interference and intimidation.

A Challenging Environment for Prosecutors

• Prosecutors face obstacles when investigating beyond street-level crimes due to fear of repercussions.

• Options for involving judicial and investigative bodies outside the local jurisdiction are limited within Argentina.

• Successful collaborations between local prosecutors and federal authorities have led to effective investigations.

Interference and Intimidation

• Major criminal organizations dismantled in Rosario were primarily through local justice efforts, not federal involvement.

• Fear among public officials investigating drug trafficking hinders progress, leading to a lack of substantial investigations.

Financial Circuits in Criminal Economies

The discussion delves into the intricate financial networks supporting criminal economies, particularly focusing on money laundering within informal financial systems.

Financial Dynamics of Narcotrafficking

• Narcotrafficking profits flow into informal financial circuits managing black money in Rosario's economy.

• Emphasizes the significant role of informal financial institutions in facilitating illegal activities within Argentina's economy.

Impact on Legal Economy

• High-end financial circuits coexist with informal money channels linked to narcotics trade, showcasing societal acceptance of illicit funds.

Discussion on the Role of Armed Forces in Security Issues

The discussion revolves around the implications of involving the armed forces in internal security matters, highlighting historical contexts and current challenges.

Puaro's Request to Involve Armed Forces

• Puaro's call for involving the armed forces neglects three critical conditions:

• Armed forces should not engage in internal security tasks.

• Contradicts the historical exclusion of armed forces from such roles during the first 20 years of democracy.

• Conceals significant variables crucial for understanding the situation.

Challenges Faced by Armed Forces

• The Chief of Staff admitted that armed forces are unprepared to combat drug trafficking, emphasizing the dangers of engaging unprepared personnel in such operations.

• Lack of readiness poses severe risks, indicating a mismatch between capabilities and demands.

Need for Institutional Reforms in Argentina

The conversation shifts towards advocating for institutional reforms rather than military intervention in addressing security challenges.

Lack of Policing Infrastructure

• Argentina lacks a robust federal policing system capable of handling complex criminal activities like organized crime.

• Previous restructuring efforts under different administrations have not resulted in an effective federal policing mechanism.

Emphasis on Reforms Over Military Involvement

• Urges prioritizing emergency plans and immediate actions while focusing on long-term reforms like enhancing the Public Prosecutor's Office and cleansing law enforcement agencies.

Homicide Rates and Narcotrafficking in Santa Fe

The speaker discusses homicide rates during different administrations in Santa Fe, emphasizing the impact of narcotrafficking on crime levels.

Homicide Rates Comparison

• Total homicides during Bullrich's and Perotti's terms are similar, but data manipulation skews perceptions.

Measurement of Deaths

• The observatory constructed during their administration accurately measures deaths, particularly homicides linked to narcotrafficking in Santa Fe.

Crime Rates and Concealment

• Claims that Perotti exacerbated crime rates are debunked; robbery and theft rates were lowest during their term but concealed.

Institutional Breakdown Indicators

• Lack of armed confrontations between police and criminals in Rosario indicates severe institutional breakdown, as noted by Marcelo Saex.

Narcotrafficking Dynamics in Rosario

The discussion delves into the structure of narcotrafficking organizations in Rosario, highlighting the absence of major cartels but the presence of powerful criminal factions.

Organization Structures

• Major narcotraffickers operate as franchises with significant influence, such as Alvarado and Guille Cantero.

Criminal Franchises

• Fragmented violent groups defend multimillion-dollar drug businesses with extreme violence, operating as criminal franchises rather than traditional cartels.

Negotiation Capacities

• Emphasizes the importance of negotiation skills for narcotraffickers to reduce violence; contrasts vertical organizations with fragmented groups defending territories violently.

Police-Criminal Nexus and Corruption

The conversation explores police-criminal relationships across Argentina, highlighting systemic corruption within law enforcement agencies.

Police-Criminal Relationships

Fragmentation within Institutions and Criminal Negotiations

The discussion delves into the concept of fragmentation within institutions, highlighting the importance of cohesion for effective negotiation with criminal entities.

Fragmentation and Cohesion in Institutions

• Fragmentation within an institution can hinder effective negotiation with criminal elements.

• Negotiating from a position of strength requires internal cohesion.

• Examples are provided to illustrate the challenges of fragmented institutions in dealing with criminal activities.

• Highlighting the need for unity when engaging in negotiations with criminal groups.

Challenges in Policing and Crime Control

The conversation shifts towards the challenges faced by law enforcement agencies in controlling crime, emphasizing the significance of street-level policing.

Street-Level Policing Challenges

• In areas like Rosario, significant fragmentation exists within law enforcement structures.

• Lack of control over street-level policing impacts crime control efforts.

• Comparison is drawn between different regions where police either dominate criminals or are subordinated to them.

• Emphasizing the critical role of effective street-level policing in combating crime.

Legalization and Drug Policy Considerations

The dialogue transitions to discussing drug policy considerations, particularly focusing on legalization and its implications for societal responses to drug consumption.

Legalization Hypotheses and Global Trends

• There is a hypothesis regarding drug policy suggesting that legalization alone may not be sufficient for addressing drug-related issues effectively.

• Questioning if Argentina is adequately prepared for a comprehensive drug consumption policy aligned with global standards.

• Global evidence supports moving towards regulatory frameworks that decriminalize personal drug use gradually.

• Referencing international examples like certain U.S. states and Uruguay's approach to marijuana regulation.

Interplay Between Drug Regulation and Crime Management

Exploring the interconnectedness between drug regulation strategies and crime management approaches, emphasizing distinct perspectives on tackling drug-related challenges.

Distinguishing Drug Issues from Crime

• It is crucial to differentiate discussions on drugs from broader crime-related concerns for effective policymaking.

• Highlighting misconceptions surrounding drugs compared to other societal issues like alcohol consumption.

• Advocating for a security policy premised on acknowledging persistent illegal drug markets while prioritizing violence prevention within these contexts.