Paulo Omar - PUB BRASIL - AJPODCAST #154

Name: Paulo Omar - PUB BRASIL - AJPODCAST #154
Uploaded: 2026-01-03T08:00:25.000Z
Duration: 4 h 44 s

AJ Podcast: Urban Communication and Strategy

Introduction to the Episode

The host welcomes the audience back to AJ Podcast, introducing the theme of basketball for this episode.

Key guests include Mateus Martins, a prominent basketball player, and Lucas Gomes, known for his three-point shooting skills.

The host humorously mentions challenges issued to various individuals in different sports, setting a light-hearted tone.

The Guest Introduction

A compelling introduction is given about Paulo Omar, highlighting his unique perspective on urban communication amidst chaotic city environments.

Paulo Omar's work focuses on restoring meaning to urban communication through strategic planning and engagement with public spaces.

He founded PUB (Planejamento Urbano Brasil), emphasizing reconciliation in urban messaging rather than mere spatial occupation.

Discussion on Urban Messaging

Paulo Omar is welcomed as a guest; he expresses gratitude for being invited and acknowledges the significance of past guests on the podcast.

The conversation shifts towards personal interests in sports like tennis and futvolei, showcasing camaraderie among guests.

Invitation to an Event

The host invites Paulinho Moura to an upcoming event called "Dia da Gratidão," encouraging listeners to reserve their tickets soon.

Emphasis is placed on the event being a day of celebration without formal presentations—just gratitude and community spirit.

Engaging with Audience Questions

The host encourages live interaction from viewers via comments during the podcast session, indicating an open dialogue approach.

Reflections on Modern Communication

Paulo Omar reflects on rapid message delivery in today's digital age and its implications for effective communication strategies.

He discusses how online media has transformed communication into more personalized interactions but also highlights concerns over homogenization due to AI-driven content creation.

This structured summary captures key moments from the transcript while providing timestamps for easy reference.

The Evolution of Communication in Advertising

The Shift to Online and Offline Integration

Acknowledges the emergence of new formats that compete with offline advertising, emphasizing how this shift has accelerated the need for better results for clients.

Highlights the importance of the client as a central figure in business, indicating ongoing efforts to enhance communication strategies.

Understanding Consumer Behavior

Discusses human tendencies towards convenience, preferring established paths rather than creating new ones, which impacts marketing strategies.

Critiques the trend of data-driven advertising focused solely on conversion rates, arguing that effective communication requires deeper connections beyond mere transactions.

The Role of Empathy in Marketing

Stresses the necessity for brands to foster empathy and relationships with consumers as a means to drive conversions sustainably.

Suggests that while online platforms boost visibility, offline (OH) advertising remains crucial in building brand-consumer relationships.

Integrating Offline Strategies into Sales Funnels

Emphasizes that offline media should be viewed as part of the sales funnel and consumer journey rather than just a coverage tool.

Cites research showing 90% of people who see an OH campaign connect with it online shortly after, highlighting its effectiveness in driving digital engagement.

The Importance of Real-Life Experiences

Describes two states consumers experience: being engrossed in screens or engaging with real-world experiences filled with emotions and interactions.

Advocates for a balanced approach between digital and physical marketing channels to create meaningful consumer connections.

Branding Beyond Transactions

Discusses branding's evolving nature and the need for metrics to evaluate branding actions effectively, moving beyond simple purchase conversions.

Reflects on competition from emerging brands challenging established giants by connecting differently with consumers through innovative messaging.

Understanding the Message: Co-Creation in Communication

The Nature of Messages

The speaker emphasizes that the message is not solely what is said, but how it is interpreted by the listener. This highlights the role of the audience as co-authors in understanding communication.

The interpretation of a message shifts focus from merely speaking to how one communicates, underscoring the importance of clarity and connection with the audience.

Simplicity in Campaigns

The discussion introduces simplicity as a key element in effective campaigns, suggesting that well-executed simple ideas often yield better results than overly complex ones.

There’s a warning against prioritizing creative ideas over clear objectives; understanding the campaign's goal should come before brainstorming creative solutions.

Emphasizing objective-driven strategies can lead to more efficient use of resources and potentially greater success compared to focusing on creativity alone.

Insights from "Apaixone-se pelo problema"

A book titled "Apaixone-se pelo problema" by Yuriliner is introduced, which encourages focusing on problems rather than solutions for innovation.

The author argues that successful entrepreneurs prioritize understanding user needs over their own ideas, promoting humility and adaptability in problem-solving.

Key Lessons from User Feedback

Empathy is identified as crucial for innovation; listening to users helps shape products effectively.

Important lessons include starting with user problems instead of preconceived ideas and valuing feedback as essential for growth and improvement.

Final Thoughts on Innovation

The speaker concludes with actionable insights: embrace new challenges daily, learn quickly from failures, and maintain curiosity to foster continuous innovation.

Encouragement to read "Apaixone-se pelo problema" reinforces its value as a resource for those interested in enhancing their approach to problem-solving.

The Importance of Empathy and Connection in Business

Building Relationships

The speaker reflects on the immediate connection and empathy felt towards a particular group, emphasizing the significance of creating spaces for people to meet.

Highlights the absence of large formats in São Paulo at that time, suggesting that such venues would thrive due to their potential for community engagement.

Family Influence and Recognition

The speaker expresses admiration for their father, Paulinho, noting his good heart and positive impact on others in the industry.

Acknowledges that kindness is often reciprocated, illustrating how Paulinho's legacy has fostered goodwill within the community.

Personal Experiences with Paulinho

Discusses Paulinho’s humility and lack of ego, contrasting it with common traits found in business leaders.

Remembers personal anecdotes about visiting Paulinho at work, highlighting his dedication to note-taking and organization.

Insights into PUB Agency Operations

Background of PUB

The speaker shares their long-standing relationship with the advertising market, having been involved since PUB's inception nine years ago.

Emphasizes a mission focused on understanding client needs beyond just media planning; aims to address clients' core objectives.

Data Measurement Evolution

Discusses advancements in data measurement tools used by PUB, moving from estimations to real-time metrics during campaigns.

Notes the rapid evolution of data analytics tools which can categorize audience profiles based on various factors like time and location.

Campaign Effectiveness

Highlights the importance of customizing campaigns based on detailed audience insights rather than generic estimates.

Stresses that measuring campaign success should not only serve as a report but also inform future strategies for improvement.

Continuous Improvement Focus

Conveys that while providing results is important for accountability, using those insights to enhance future campaigns is paramount.

Understanding Data and Human Insight in Marketing

The Role of Data in Decision Making

The speaker expresses uncertainty about the utility of their data, suggesting that the abundance of information may overwhelm its practical application.

There is a recognition that human insight remains crucial in interpreting data and achieving desired outcomes, emphasizing the limitations of relying solely on numbers.

Importance of Communication and Creativity

Effective communication is highlighted as essential; even with substantial investment, poor messaging can lead to failure in reaching target audiences.

Creativity is acknowledged as a human trait that cannot be replaced by machines, stressing that memorable campaigns often stem from clear understanding rather than just innovative ideas.

Understanding Consumer Behavior

Campaign effectiveness hinges on how well messages resonate with consumers; clarity in communication is more critical than mere creativity.

A study indicates that 95% of consumers are not ready to purchase at any given time, underscoring the need for targeted messaging to avoid being intrusive.

Navigating the Sales Funnel

The sales funnel concept illustrates consumer awareness leading to action, influenced by emotional triggers. However, only 10% will consider unknown brands when ready to buy.

Emphasis is placed on brand recognition and timing; effective marketing must align with consumer readiness rather than constant promotion.

Evolving Marketing Strategies

The discussion reflects a shift from traditional metrics like coverage and frequency towards understanding individual consumer behavior beyond generic personas.

Building brand identity requires patience and consistency; it’s vital for long-term success despite challenges associated with establishing new brands.

Balancing Online and Physical Presence

The speaker advocates for maintaining physical points of sale as they foster real connections with consumers, enhancing brand presence beyond mere transactional interactions.

The Importance of In-Person Consumer Experience

Engaging with Other Consumers

Discusses the value of in-person interactions among consumers, such as sharing opinions about products like bags or shoes.

Highlights that brands are increasingly focusing on creating experiences rather than just sales metrics.

Creating Authority and Identity

Emphasizes that physical points of sale should aim to build brand authority and identity, not solely focus on immediate sales results.

Suggests that enhancing consumer experience at physical locations can positively impact online sales.

Case Study: ASICS Running Shoe Campaign

Describes a campaign for an ASICS running shoe where participants could test the product in a real-world setting over four weekends.

Details how a branded bus transported runners to parks for testing, allowing them to provide feedback after their experience.

Real Experiences vs. Digital Interactions

Notes the significance of creating genuine consumer experiences that lead to authentic feedback and engagement on platforms like YouTube.

Argues that out-of-home (OH) marketing is uniquely positioned to facilitate these real-life interactions compared to other media.

The Role of Real-Life Experiences in Marketing

Connecting with Consumers Emotionally

Stresses the importance of real-life experiences in reaching consumers' emotions through impactful messaging.

Utilizing Innovative Platforms

Introduces a case involving Caixa Seguradora, which utilized traditional media alongside innovative strategies for targeted marketing campaigns.

Strategic Media Placement

Explains how they mapped over 80 agencies strategically using traditional media within high traffic areas based on agency performance metrics.

Campaign Adaptation Based on Performance

Discusses redistributing campaign budgets according to each agency's sales performance over several months, optimizing resource allocation effectively.

Case Study on Media Points and Data Analysis

Understanding Media Point Tracking

The discussion revolves around tracking media points during a specific week, detailing latitude and longitude for precise location identification.

Data from the media point is analyzed to understand foot traffic at sales locations, emphasizing efficiency in data utilization.

Route Optimization and Impact

An example from São Paulo illustrates how navigation systems avoid congested areas even if they contain media points, prioritizing user experience over advertising exposure.

The system adapts by providing alternative routes that may not pass by media points but still deliver impactful advertising through different formats.

Campaign Adjustments Based on Data

Weekly adjustments are made based on data received about audience engagement with campaigns, allowing for geographical area recalibrations to optimize performance.

Continuous monitoring enables strategic increases or decreases in campaign delivery based on real-time effectiveness.

Recognition of Innovative Approaches

The case study is noted as one of the first in Brazil combining Waze with Out-of-home (OOH) advertising, referred to as "WoW."

This innovative approach was presented at an international convention, highlighting its significance within the industry.

Strategic Resource Allocation

Emphasizes the importance of economic efficiency in maximizing communication results without overspending on ineffective strategies.

Advocates for intelligent investment decisions based on performance metrics rather than blanket spending to meet targets.

National Operations Overview

The organization operates nationwide in Brazil, receiving weekly updates about new formats and trends from various media vehicles.

A welcoming environment is fostered for visitors at their office, designed to reflect a pub atmosphere which enhances client relations.

Reflecting on Growth and Development

As they approach ten years of operation, there’s a reflection on past achievements and growth within the agency's journey since its inception.

Acknowledges the impact of former employees who have moved into leadership roles elsewhere, showcasing successful career development stemming from their experiences.

Future Partnerships and Learning Opportunities

Highlights the potential for future collaborations with former team members who have gained valuable knowledge during their tenure.

Workplace Dynamics and Learning Opportunities

Importance of In-Person Collaboration

The speaker emphasizes the value of in-person learning, stating that individuals gain diverse skills through direct interaction with colleagues.

While acknowledging differing opinions on remote work, the speaker argues that physical presence fosters knowledge acquisition through osmosis.

Curiosity plays a crucial role; being around knowledgeable individuals encourages learning and skill development.

The speaker expresses strong support for in-person work, highlighting its benefits for new employees who can learn from experienced team members.

A personal commitment to daily office attendance is shared, underscoring the importance of being involved in operations and client interactions.

Perspectives on Remote Work

The discussion transitions to sponsorship messages, indicating a shift towards business partnerships while maintaining focus on workplace dynamics.

The speaker mentions Deled as an example of a company evolving beyond just product offerings to provide comprehensive solutions tailored to various sectors.

Emphasis is placed on quality and reliability in equipment provided by companies like Deled, which are seen as synonymous with excellence in their field.

Future Trends in Media and Technology

RZK is introduced as a forward-thinking company revolutionizing media standards with advanced audience measurement systems aimed at optimizing advertising costs.

Predictions are made about RZK's potential growth leading up to the 2030 World Cup, positioning it as a leader in digital transport media within Brazil.

Integration of Data and Speed

The conversation concludes with reflections on future trends emphasizing integration between online and offline strategies, driven by data intelligence.

The need for agility in adapting to rapid changes within the industry is highlighted as essential for success moving forward.

The Role of Human Experience in Communication and Data Analysis

The Challenge of Technological Advancement

The speaker emphasizes the importance of staying attuned to technological advancements, noting that many experienced individuals have distanced themselves from current communication business practices.

Human Insight vs. Data-Driven Decisions

There is a strong belief in the value of human experience over data alone; for instance, while Waze may suggest a route, personal preference often prevails in decision-making.

Engaging Experiences in Marketing

Sponsored events like races are highlighted as effective marketing strategies that engage both brands and health-conscious consumers, showcasing the power of experiential marketing.

The Limitations of Data Metrics

The speaker reflects on how certain impactful experiences cannot be quantified by data metrics, such as memorable moments during travel or unique advertising pieces that resonate emotionally with audiences.

Balancing Data and Human Experience

Acknowledging the limitations of relying solely on data, the speaker argues for a balance between quantitative insights and qualitative human experiences to enhance communication effectiveness.

Challenges in Communicating Value

It can be difficult to convey the significance of non-tangible aspects (like creativity or emotional impact) when dealing with younger professionals who prioritize numerical data over experiential insights.

Defending Non-Tangible Ideas

While numbers are easier to defend in discussions about media planning, there is an understanding within the market regarding the importance of real-life experiences alongside data-driven arguments.

Innovative Campaign Development

The discussion includes examples where new ideas were developed without existing data support, emphasizing creativity and understanding client needs as crucial elements in campaign success.

Utilizing Local Insights for Campaign Evaluation

An example is provided where local app users evaluate campaigns based on their regional knowledge, demonstrating how localized insights can enhance overall campaign effectiveness.

Campaign Insights and Client Engagement

Understanding Campaign Feedback Mechanisms

The campaign evaluation system allows clients to rate from one to four, helping refine future campaigns based on client feedback.

Clients can suggest locations for future campaigns by taking photos through the app, enhancing data collection directly from their experiences.

This process builds a robust database of insights, as clients contribute real-time observations about campaign effectiveness in various locations.

The Importance of Local Presence

Discussions highlight the need for strategic project development focused on communication rather than just physical advertising mediums like LED panels.

There is an emphasis on understanding local dynamics; suggestions made by clients can lead to innovative opportunities that may not have been previously considered.

Trust and Innovation in Advertising

Trust plays a crucial role when clients propose new ideas; they must believe in the potential of these innovations even if they are untested.

Examples are given where brands successfully gained traction using minimal presence initially, demonstrating how word-of-mouth can elevate brand visibility.

Challenges of Digital Marketing

The conversation shifts to digital marketing challenges, noting that while many businesses have moved online, reach has significantly diminished compared to previous years.

There's a critique of current digital strategies focusing too heavily on retention and profit maximization at the expense of broader engagement.

Personal Reflections and Experiences

A personal anecdote reveals how familial relationships influence perspectives on sports and leisure activities like golf versus more energetic sports such as tennis or beach volleyball.

The speaker shares their preference for high-energy sports over golf due to its slower pace, illustrating individual differences in engagement with various activities.

Discussion on Personal Life and Career Path

Insights into Family and Relationships

The speaker discusses the similarities in movements, particularly focusing on hip rotation, indicating a connection to sports or physical activities.

A conversation about family reveals that the speaker is 38 years old, married for 4-5 years, and has no children yet. They mention a trend of planning families later in life.

The speaker shares their wedding was postponed due to the pandemic, originally planned for 2020 but took place in 2021.

Academic Background

The discussion shifts to the speaker's academic qualifications; they are an administrator with a background in business management and marketing from reputable institutions.

Emphasizing practical experience, the speaker notes that their career path was influenced by early exposure to business environments.

Professional Experience

The speaker reflects on their long tenure at previous jobs (Siemens and another company), highlighting stability over frequent job changes.

They describe working at PUB as starting from scratch with no established processes compared to their previous experiences where strict procedures were followed.

Process vs. Flexibility in Work Environments

At Siemens, employees undergo extensive training with detailed schedules outlining daily tasks, which provides structure but can feel restrictive.

The importance of following established processes is discussed; success is often measured against adherence to these guidelines rather than individual creativity.

Entrepreneurial Challenges

Transitioning from structured corporate environments to entrepreneurship presents unique challenges; there’s a need for self-direction without predefined paths.

The conversation highlights the duality of process: while it offers security and guidance, entrepreneurship requires navigating uncertainty without clear instructions.

Reflections on Human Resources

A brief mention of the speaker's sister working in human resources emphasizes understanding people as crucial within any organization.

What is the Importance of People in Marketing?

Introduction to Personal Connections in Marketing

The discussion emphasizes that marketing ultimately revolves around people, highlighting the importance of personal connections in the industry.

A participant mentions Luana, who transitioned from advertising to human resources at Red Bull, illustrating career adaptability and personal growth.

The "Pergunta Faixa" Segment

The segment introduces "Pergunta Faixa," a question-and-answer format featuring Tiquinho, a university student representing Unifaixa.

Tiquinho's role is to engage with the audience by asking relevant questions about marketing campaigns.

Key Factors Influencing Campaign Success

A question arises regarding what influences campaign results more: location, format, or timing.

The response stresses that success depends on synchronizing all three factors while keeping the campaign's ultimate objective in focus.

It’s crucial not to prioritize these factors over understanding the client's goals; clarity on objectives leads to better outcomes.

Insights on Relationship Building in Business

Discussion shifts towards how companies like Pub emphasize relationships over data-driven approaches, showcasing a human-centric business model.

Paulinho shares that strong interpersonal relationships enhance client service and negotiation capabilities within businesses.

Trust as a Cornerstone of Relationships

Trust is highlighted as essential; when clients trust you, it increases responsibility and accountability in delivering results.

Participants reflect on their experiences where trust has led to deeper professional relationships and responsibilities beyond mere transactions.

Conclusion of Discussion

The conversation wraps up with an acknowledgment of the significance of human connection and trust in fostering long-term business relationships.

What is the Role of Media in Urban Spaces?

The Concept of X1 Questioning

The discussion begins with a metaphor comparing questioning to a tennis match, emphasizing an interactive and dynamic exchange.

The speaker introduces the theme of the conversation, referencing Sam Altman and ChatGPT, while connecting it to the book "Apaixone-se pelo problema, não pela solução" (Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution).

Identifying Problems in Media

A key question posed: What was the most troubling issue regarding how media operated in cities?

The speaker identifies lack of standardization and organization as significant issues that have historically hindered media effectiveness.

Evolution of Media Practices

There is a noted evolution in media practices; organizations are increasingly focused on delivering quality content rather than just maximizing advertising revenue.

Modern media outlets are now more concerned about their contributions to urban environments, aiming for positive impacts such as safety and cleanliness.

Broader Contributions Beyond Locality

Discussion highlights that media can contribute not only locally but also support broader cultural and educational initiatives.

Examples include supporting arts and education without expecting direct returns or benefits solely for local communities.

Personal Reflections on Work Life

Transitioning to personal reflections, one participant shares that work feels more like enjoyment than labor due to meaningful connections made.

Acknowledgment of time's value changes with age; there's a focus on making better use of time rather than wasting it on unproductive activities like excessive social media use.

Resilience and Challenges in Business

Insights on Resilience

The speaker reflects on the importance of resilience, noting that each day lived is a blessing, emphasizing a positive outlook despite challenges.

Acknowledges the unexpected speed of market changes, highlighting the need for patience and resilience in navigating these dynamics.

Emphasizes that results achieved organically over time are more sustainable than those obtained through haste, advocating for a steady approach to business growth.

Managing Anxiety in Entrepreneurship

Discusses the anxiety associated with new prospects and challenges, indicating that selling complex products can take considerable time compared to simpler sales.

Reinforces the idea that building relationships and trust takes time, which is crucial for long-term success in entrepreneurship.

The Role of Communication Channels

Effectiveness Across Brands

The speaker believes that effective communication strategies can work for any brand if applied correctly; there are no inherently bad media channels.

Highlights the significance of understanding how different media can resonate with local communities, enhancing brand identification and belonging.

Community Connection Through Branding

Shares an example of local advertising's impact on community identity, illustrating how brands can foster a sense of belonging when they engage with local culture.

Discusses how successful branding creates community ties by making consumers feel connected to their neighborhoods through familiar brands.

Creative Observations in Marketing

Importance of Tailored Campaign Strategies

Stresses the necessity of observing consumer behavior and urban spaces to create effective marketing solutions tailored to specific demographics.

Warns against using one-size-fits-all approaches in campaigns; understanding individual markets leads to better engagement outcomes.

Common Creative Mistakes

Identifies frequent creative errors such as poor color contrast in designs, which can undermine visual effectiveness.

Understanding Information Overload in Communication

The Challenge of Excessive Information

The phenomenon of information overload is prevalent, where too much detail can overwhelm the audience.

When a simple concept like a sandwich is introduced, it triggers various images and ideas in the audience's mind without needing extensive details.

Major brands often have specialized departments to manage communication effectively, ensuring clarity within the constraints of time and attention spans.

Media Dynamics and Audience Engagement

The effectiveness of media depends on its context; whether the audience is stationary or moving influences how they perceive messages.

Real-world observations reveal that even well-known brands like iFood can fail to connect with audiences if their campaigns lack clarity or relevance.

Guidelines for Effective Communication

Despite existing manuals from various companies aimed at guiding communication strategies, issues still arise in execution.

A structured approach to project management includes understanding client briefs thoroughly and adapting strategies based on market research.

Importance of Human Insight

While guidelines are essential, human insight remains irreplaceable in crafting effective communication strategies tailored to specific markets.

Building strong relationships with media partners enhances trust and improves campaign outcomes for clients across different regions.

Adaptability in Strategy Development

Strategies must evolve continuously; rigid adherence to outdated methods can lead to failure as consumer behaviors change over time.

Emphasizing real-time measurement tools allows for ongoing adjustments to campaigns, ensuring they remain relevant and effective.

Reflecting on Knowledge Accumulation

Knowledge gained from past experiences serves as a guide for future decisions but should not limit innovation or adaptability.

Recognizing that reliance on established tools without considering current usage trends may lead to obsolescence highlights the need for continuous learning.

Discussion on Brand Communication and Creativity

The Nature of Organic Business Growth

The speaker emphasizes the importance of organic growth in business, suggesting that it evolves over time rather than being static.

Influence of People Over Brands

The speaker argues that it's not the brands themselves but the individuals behind them who drive effective communication. They highlight the role of creative people in shaping brand narratives.

Creativity and Ego in Advertising

A key insight is that the most successful creatives are often those who detach from ego and vanity, focusing instead on the campaign's success rather than personal recognition.

Community Building by Brands

The discussion touches on how brands like Apple create a sense of community, attributing this to the people involved in developing their concepts rather than just the brand itself.

Case Study: Nike's Strategic Shift

An example is given regarding Nike's former CEO who believed data could replace physical retail presence, leading to a loss in market share due to lack of customer engagement compared to Apple’s approach.

Future Urban Policy Influences

Collaborative Public Policies

When asked about influencing public policies for urban problem-solving, the speaker advocates for collaboration between various stakeholders to ensure mutual benefits.

Win-Win Scenarios

Emphasizing a "win-win" philosophy, they suggest that effective solutions arise when all parties—government, citizens, and businesses—benefit from partnerships.

Ideal Interview Candidates

Personal Aspirations for Interviews

In response to a question about whom they would interview if given a choice, the speaker mentions historical figures like Solomon for their wisdom and contemporary leaders in Brazilian communication for their insights.

Notable Figures Mentioned

Specific names mentioned include Hugo Rodrigues and Ana Cto as influential figures whose perspectives would enrich discussions on communication strategies.

Closing Thoughts on Podcast Experience

Positive Reflections on Interaction

The guest expresses gratitude for participating in the podcast, highlighting an enjoyable atmosphere created by both hosts and staff during their interaction.

Final Remarks

As parting advice or reflection, there is mention of leaving a memorable quote or phrase at the end of their conversation.

Inspirational Message for the Audience

Crafting an Inspiring Phrase

The speaker plans to display a motivational phrase on an LED panel in Barra da Tijuca, aiming to inspire the audience.

The proposed phrase is "As ruas falam: Ouça e entre na conversa," which translates to "The streets speak: Listen and join the conversation."

This phrase emphasizes the importance of listening and engaging with one's surroundings and community.

The speaker expresses enthusiasm about the chosen phrase, highlighting its potential impact on posterity.

The interaction suggests a collaborative effort in creating messages that resonate with people.