Noam Chomsky and Daniel Ellsberg on Preventing Nuclear War

In this transcript, Noam Chomsky and Daniel Ellsberg discuss the ways to prevent nuclear war. They talk about the drift towards nuclear war, how to arrest it, and what are the best ways to proceed.

The Drift Towards Nuclear War

• Noam Chomsky asks Daniel Ellsberg about his experience in trying to protest the race to nuclear war over these years.

• General Curtis LeMay wanted a nuclear war earlier than later because it was going to be harder later. He had a few acolytes in the earlier years but really almost nobody else and nobody now.

• No one wants a two-sided nuclear war.

Effective Ways To Arrest The Drift Towards Nuclear War

• What are the effective ways to proceed that can arrest the drift towards nuclear war?

• How do you stop this continual step towards what could turn out well to be a determined nuclear war?

• What is the way to get people to understand this?

Urgency of Nuclear Weapons Issue

• Americans don't consider nuclear weapons as an urgent issue according to a study by Pew polling centers.

• Daniel Ellsburg doesn't know how we can make people understand the urgency of preventing nuclear war.

Imperial Latitude of American Leaders

• The phrase "our leaders act, and our people act. It's unquestioned. It's unchallenged" is an imperial latitude that wasn't emphasized before.

• People acted as if they had a right to intervene, to invade and occupy, to threaten all these things. The question of right to do this didn't arise.

Conclusion

In this transcript, Noam Chomsky and Daniel Ellsberg discuss the ways to prevent nuclear war. They talk about the drift towards nuclear war, how to arrest it, and what are the best ways to proceed. Americans don't consider nuclear weapons as an urgent issue according to a study by Pew polling centers. People acted as if they had a right to intervene, invade and occupy without questioning their right to do so.

The Stalemate in Vietnam and its Relevance Today

In this section, the speaker discusses how the public did not understand that the Vietnam War was a stalemate due to the White House forbidding the use of the word "stalemate." He also talks about how many officials agreed with him but did not say it. The speaker then draws parallels between the current situation in Ukraine and World War I.

The Stalemate in Vietnam

• The public did not understand that the Vietnam War was a stalemate because of White House censorship.

• Many officials, including Robert McNamara, agreed with the speaker's assessment but did not publicly acknowledge it.

• The Tet Offensive did not change the fact that there was a stalemate in Vietnam until much later.

Parallels to Current Situation in Ukraine

• The current situation in Ukraine is similar to World War I's trench warfare.

• Negotiations were possible a year ago but were discouraged by both sides.

• Delusions on both sides led to miscalculations about how quickly they could win.

Discouraging Compromise as a Crime Against Humanity

In this section, the speaker argues that discouraging compromise during conflicts is a crime against humanity. He cites examples from history and discusses how delusions can lead to disastrous consequences.

Discouraging Compromise as a Crime Against Humanity

• Discouraging compromise during conflicts is a crime against humanity.

• Delusions on both sides can lead to disastrous consequences.

• Leaders are unlikely to call off conflicts even if they realize they made a mistake.

Examples from History

• World War I showed how delusions can be proven wrong within a month or two.

• Discouraging compromise during conflicts is a historic war crime.

• Putin also had delusions about the conflict in Ukraine.

The Problem with Human Nature

In this section, the speakers discuss how humans can be easily persuaded to believe that they are in danger from other people who are different from them. This leads to aggression and a need for enemies, which is often exploited by politicians and the media.

Humans' Flawed Nature

• People don't want tyranny, torture, aggression or invasion but can easily be persuaded that it's the right thing to do.

• Humans have a flaw where they're not necessarily aggressive by nature but can easily be persuaded that they are in danger from people who are different from them.

• It makes it very hard to avert Democrats who profit from this enemy concept and the war concept.

Exploitation of Fear

• Politicians exploit fear by calling those who describe negotiation as appeasers or weak on aggression.

• The media and Congress put out messages bought by oil companies and arms industries that create a need for enemies.

• Church groups and others protested against Reagan's attempts to go to war in Central America.

Effectiveness of Anti-War Movements

In this section, the speakers discuss the effectiveness of anti-war movements in preventing violence and saving lives.

Impact of Anti-War Movements

• The anti-war movement in the '60s may have prevented Nixon from using nuclear weapons.

• The anti-war movement saved millions of lives during the Vietnam War.

• The outburst of protest from popular groups, church groups, and others in the '80s prevented Reagan from going to war in Central America.

Planning for War with Iran

In this section, the speakers discuss the possibility of a war with Iran and recent military exercises carried out by the US and Israel.

Possibility of War with Iran

• The US and Israel carried out their largest joint military exercises ever planning for an attack on Iran.

• The US ambassador to Israel informed them that they can do whatever they like. We'll have your back.

The Build-Up Towards War

In this section, the speakers discuss the potential for war with Iran and how it could be used to bring US allies back under control. They also talk about the failure to mobilize against this kind of thinking in advance.

Potential for War with Iran

• Iran has demonstrated its ability to send missiles to destroy major energy sources in Saudi Arabia.

• US allies in the Middle East are beginning to make moves towards accommodation with Iran and China, which could lead to a more multipolar structure.

• One way to bring these allies back together is by going to war against Iran, which would provoke a reaction that could be used to attack them and bring them under control again.

Failure to Mobilize Against War

• There is concern that planning for war is constantly going on without enough mobilization against it.

• People need to be made aware of what their elected representatives are planning so they can take action before it's too late.

• We need to find ways to get there in time and prevent wars from happening.

Escalating Efforts Against War

In this section, the speakers discuss how difficult it can be to persuade people not to go along with plans for war. They also talk about how the anti-war movement was able to keep a lid on the Vietnam War.

Persuading People Against War

• All we can do is try to escalate our efforts and pick up arms against a sea of troubles.

• Not all people are against moving towards war even when they know it's happening. It's easy to persuade them that it's necessary and what we have to do.

The Anti-War Movement

• The anti-war movement was able to keep a lid on the Vietnam War and prevent an enormous escalation in 1969.

• The moratorium, which was really a general strike during a workday, showed Nixon that he would have ten times as many people protesting if he escalated the war.

Miracles and Nixon's Plan to Renew Vietnam

In this section, the speaker talks about miracles that are possible and cites the ending of the Berlin Wall and Nelson Mandela becoming President of South Africa as examples. The speaker then discusses how Nixon was planning to renew Vietnam as soon as American troops were out.

Miracles that are Possible

• The speaker cites the ending of the Berlin Wall and Nelson Mandela becoming President of South Africa without a revolution as examples of miracles that are possible.

• The speaker emphasizes that it was impossible years beforehand to imagine these low likelihood events, but they did happen.

Nixon's Plan to Renew Vietnam

• The speaker reveals that Nixon was planning to renew Vietnam as soon as American troops were out in 1973.

• The Paris Agreement was not meant in Nixon's eyes to end the war. It was meant to get US troops out and carry it on by US airpower in support of ARVN troops.

• With Nixon in office, there was no chance that he would be out so that the war could be ended before 1977.

• Nixon took crimes against the speaker which were very unlikely to be found out because he feared that his plans and threats would be documented.

• Without Alex Butterfield revealing the taping in the Oval Office confirmed what John Dean had said, Nixon would have remained.

• None of those people including me had any reason to think there was any chance or much chance.

Making a Difference

In this section, Daniel Ellsberg and Noam Chomsky discuss the impact of their actions and the importance of taking risks to make a difference.

Taking Risks

• For over half a century, it's been unclear which actions will make a difference.

• The Pentagon Papers were proof that taking risks can make a difference.

• Even though the outcome is unforeseeable, it's important to do what you can.

• People who revealed information outside the system risked losing access, jobs, clearances, careers, and marriages.

Everything is at Stake

• Nuclear threats are not acceptable from anyone.

• Public attitudes about nuclear weapons have prevented threats from being carried out.

• Randy Keilar and others took chances of imprisonment for a small chance of influencing events.

• It's worth demonstrating in civil disobedience for even a small chance of changing the course of events.

Inspiration

In this section, Noam Chomsky reflects on Daniel Ellsburg's contributions and how they inspire others to stand up for what needs to be done.

Inspiration

• Daniel Ellsburg has been an inspiration for standing up for what needs to be done.

• Noam Chomsky admires Daniel Ellsburg's work.

• Daniel Ellsburg considers Noam Chomsky his hero and mentor.

Conclusion

In this section, the hosts thank their guests for joining them and providing insight into their experiences.

Thank You

• The hosts thank Daniel Ellsburg and Noam Chomsky for joining them.

• They express gratitude for the inspiration they provide.