A history of Hazara and the meaning of being Australian with Hashmat Temori - Okiru Huddle Pod #53

Introduction

In this episode, the speaker interviews Hashmert, a Hazara Australian person who shares his story of moving to Pakistan and then Australia after escaping Afghanistan following the Civil War. The interview also covers the rich history of Hazara in Afghanistan and discusses the Australian identity.

Hashmert's Language Skills

• Hashmert speaks Farsi, Hazaragi, and Dari which are dialects of Farsi.

• He also speaks Urdu and Hindi due to living in Pakistan for a few years.

• Depending on how you look at it, he can speak three or five languages.

Family History

• Hashmert belongs to an ethnic group called The Hazara who mainly reside in Afghanistan.

• There are different theories about how they ended up in Afghanistan but there is a big population in Iran as well.

• His family fled from Afghanistan during the Civil War and moved to Pakistan where they lived for several years before migrating to Australia.

Australian Identity

• The interview discusses what it means to be Australian and how we can progress and unite as a culture.

Introduction to Hazara Community in Melbourne

In this section, the speaker talks about the Hazara community in Melbourne and how it has grown significantly over the years.

The Hazara Community in Melbourne

• There is a huge community of Hazaras in Melbourne.

• The first group of Hazaras came to Melbourne as asylum seekers and refugees in the late 90s.

• The persecution against the Hazara people in Afghanistan and Pakistan has forced them to flee their homes for centuries.

• Despite the sad story behind their migration, Hazard communities have been established everywhere.

Reasons for Persecution Against Hazaras

In this section, the speaker explains why Hazaras are persecuted in Afghanistan.

Reasons for Persecution Against Hazaras

• The majority ethnic group believes that Hazaras do not belong there.

• Racism against the minority Shia sect of Islam which is practiced by most Hazaras.

• Geopolitical factors such as Afghanistan's location and its history as a battleground for world powers have contributed to manipulating ethnic groups against each other.

Impact of Persecution on Future Generations

In this section, the speaker discusses how persecution affects future generations of Hazaras.

Impact on Future Generations

• Children born and raised in Australia still feel the pain of what their parents went through due to persecution.

• Psychological impact remains for generations.

Hazaras and the History of Afghanistan

In this section, the speaker discusses the history of Hazaras in Afghanistan and their connection to Mongolians. They also talk about evidence that proves Hazaras have been living in Afghanistan for thousands of years.

The History of Bamyan

• Bamyan is a province in Central Afghanistan that has the world's largest Buddha ever built in the history of humankind.

• The reason why Afghanistan is strategically located is because it has always been the link between Central Asia and India, as well as Iran and Middle East to an extent.

• Bamyan was located right in the middle of Silk Road which was a trade connection between East and West. It was on the heart of that road.

• The Buddhas were built thousands of years ago, prior to Islam even.

Destruction of Buddhas

• Taliban destroyed these massive Buddhas by bringing specialists from other parts of that region to actually destroy them with proper effort.

• Taliban wanted to destroy the history of Hazaras who are indigenous people living there for thousands of years. They wanted to remove any evidence proving their claim that they did not belong there.

• Destroying these Buddhas took away tourism potential from this region which could have helped boost local economy.

Meaning Behind Names

In this section, the speaker talks about different names such as Pakistan, Hindustan, and Australia and what they mean.

Name Meanings

• Pakistan means "clean" or "land of clean people".

• Hindustan is another name for India.

• Australia could be called "the land down under".

Central Asian Ethnicities

In this section, the speaker discusses the similarities between different Central Asian ethnicities and shares personal experiences of being mistaken for a Hazara or Uzbek.

Similarities Between Central Asian Ethnicities

• The speaker notes that people from different Central Asian countries like Pakistan and Kazakhstan look quite similar.

• The majority of Hazaras have been in the region for thousands of years, but there are also other ethnic groups who have migrated to the area over time.

• The speaker shares a personal experience of being mistaken for a Hazara by someone from Afghanistan due to their similar features.

Identifying Different Asian Ethnicities

• The speaker mentions having an "Asian radar" and being able to identify different Asian ethnicities based on their physical features.

• Despite living in Australia among many different Asian communities, the speaker can still distinguish between various backgrounds.

Life as a Refugee in Pakistan

In this section, the speaker talks about their experience as a refugee in Pakistan after fleeing Afghanistan with their family.

Fleeing Afghanistan

• The speaker was born during the Civil War in Afghanistan and had to flee with their family when the Taliban took over.

• They became refugees and went to live in Pakistan for several years.

• It was a tough time for their family since they were part of a large group with many siblings.

Living as a Refugee

• The speaker attended primary school while living in Pakistan and learned Urdu during their time there.

• The speaker does not provide any additional information about their experience as a refugee in Pakistan.

Hazara Community in Afghanistan and Pakistan

In this section, the speaker talks about his family's experience as Hazaras living in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He discusses the challenges they faced due to their ethnicity and status as refugees.

Life in Pakistan

• The speaker's family fled to Pakistan as undocumented refugees after his father was targeted during a massacre of Hazaras by the Taliban.

• They lived in Pakistan for several years until the fall of the Taliban in 2001, when they returned to Afghanistan.

• The speaker describes facing racism and bullying as a child due to being one of the few Hazaras in his school.

• Despite these challenges, he notes that his family was able to survive by making handmade rugs and working hard.

Challenges Faced by Refugees

• The speaker explains that his family's rug-making business was a means of survival, but it was still difficult to make ends meet.

• He notes that being undocumented made it even harder because they had to pay higher prices for basic necessities like electricity and water.

• Despite these challenges, he emphasizes that his family worked hard and stuck together to overcome them.

Escaping Afghanistan

In this section, the speaker talks about their family's escape from Afghanistan and their journey to Pakistan.

Escape to Pakistan

• The speaker's family fled Afghanistan due to the Taliban's rise to power.

• The speaker's uncle had a harrowing journey through the mountains to join them in Pakistan.

• The speaker has not had a deep conversation with her uncle about his experience but encourages him to write a book about it.

Reflecting on the Past

• As an adult, the speaker finds it hard to remember how she felt during that time.

• Coping mechanisms may cause people to block out memories of difficult times.

• The trauma of being a refugee and asylum seeker has ripple effects on families and individuals.

Returning Home

• The family returned home after 9/11 when the US invaded Afghanistan and established a new government.

• They wanted to return home because they could not settle in Peshawar as undocumented refugees.

Moving to Melbourne

In this section, the speaker talks about how his family moved to Melbourne from Pakistan and how his brother came to Australia as a refugee.

Family's Move to Melbourne

• The speaker's family moved to Melbourne because the situation in Pakistan became too difficult for them.

• The speaker's brother came to Australia as a refugee and dealt with temporary protection visas (TPV).

• The Australian government had a similar policy of TPVs in the early 2000s.

Uncertainty About Home

• The speaker discusses the concept of "homeland" and struggles with identifying Afghanistan as his homeland.

• He still loves Afghan culture and people but is unsure if he can call it his homeland anymore.

Afghanistan's Lost Enlightenment

In this section, the speaker talks about Afghanistan's rich history and culture that is often misrepresented in Western media.

Afghanistan's History

• The region was once the center of science for the world, including mathematics.

• Libraries and cultures of learning existed in regions such as Damascus, Baghdad, Central Asia, and Syria.

• Unfortunately, much of this knowledge has been lost due to wars and conflicts throughout history.

Neglecting Human Side

• The human side is often neglected when atrocities happen around the world.

• Experts on TV talk about foreign regions without truly understanding or empathizing with those affected.

The Impact of Recent Events in Afghanistan

In this section, the speaker discusses recent events in Afghanistan, including the withdrawal of US troops and the Taliban's takeover.

Recent Withdrawal of US Troops

• In August 2021, after 20 years of being in Afghanistan, the US packed up and left everything behind.

• This caused a huge influx of people wanting to leave the country.

• The Taliban took advantage of this situation and took over again.

Taliban Takeover

• The Taliban's takeover has resulted in persecution and banning girls from attending school.

• Children are currently experiencing what the speaker went through 20 years ago.

• The speaker feels that it is difficult to think about Homeland as just one location because their mind goes beyond geographical borders.

Shaping Identity Through Experiences

In this section, the speaker talks about how their experiences have shaped their identity and desire for positive change.

Educational Experience

• Being a refugee in the mid-'90s and migrating to Australia has been an educational experience that has shaped who they are as a person now.

• It has taught them about humanity beyond geographical borders.

Desire for Positive Change

• Their experiences have led them on a journey to bring positive change wherever possible.

• They believe that small steps can make a big difference, such as having conversations with others to share knowledge and information.

Creating Meaningful Change Through Youth LED Unit

In this section, the speakers discuss their involvement with a youth-led unit committed to creating meaningful change in society.

Youth LED Unit

• The youth-led unit is a group of visionary young people committed to creating meaningful change in society.

• They aim to create positive change in Australia, Melbourne, and beyond.

Creating Impact and Change

• The speakers are part of the committee of management for the youth-led unit.

• They want to create meaningful change by working together with other like-minded individuals.

Creating Awareness and Building Bridges

In this section, the speaker discusses the importance of creating awareness and building bridges amongst communities in Australia. The speaker emphasizes that love is the solution to many problems.

Importance of Small Community Organizations

• Love is the opposite of persecution and hardship.

• Lack of connection between small community organizations and broader community organizations.

• Meaningful change can happen by working with small community organizations that understand their communities better than anyone else.

Building Capacity for Change

• Young people with a lot of energy yearning for change.

• Building something greater than ourselves while building ourselves up.

• Broadening horizons and adding more skills to help make the world a better place.

Providing a Platform for Multicultural Voices

In this section, the speakers discuss their podcast's intention to provide a platform for multicultural voices in Australia. They highlight how there is a gap in platforms or podcasts like theirs in Australia compared to the US.

Importance of Podcasting

• Process of building ourselves up while helping our community.

• Gap in platforms or podcasts for multicultural voices in Australia compared to other countries.

What Home Means

• Everyone has their own perspective on what home means.

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The Connection to Afghanistan

In this section, the speaker talks about her family's connection to Afghanistan and their feelings towards it.

Family's Lifetime in Afghanistan

• The speaker's family has spent their lifetime in Afghanistan.

• Their connection to the land goes back many generations.

• The speaker hopes that one day they can return to visit or even live there.

Poetic Connection to Homeland

• The speaker's father is a poet who wrote a poem about their village in Afghanistan.

• Through the poem, the speaker could feel her father's love and care for his homeland.

• Persian poetry is unmatched according to the speaker.

Hazara Community in Australia

In this section, the speaker talks about the Hazara community in Australia and how they have created a new culture.

New Culture of Hazara Community

• The Hazara community in Australia is made up of young people who were raised there.

• They have created a new culture that combines their identity as Hazaras with their lived experience in Australia.

Hazara Culture and Music

In this section, the speaker talks about the Hazara culture and music. He discusses how his friends are from different cultures and backgrounds, but they all share a love for music. He also talks about the unique musical instruments that are part of the Hazara culture.

The Diversity of Hazara Culture

• The speaker describes how the Hazara people have a mixture of different cultures in them.

• He talks about his amazing group of friends who come from different cultural backgrounds.

• The speaker explains that there is an instrument called dambra which is unique to the Hazara culture.

Love for Music

• The speaker's friend group loves music, especially Eastern music.

• They play musical instruments like harmonium and dambra.

• They also play Western instruments like guitar.

Third Culture

• The speaker talks about how he has developed a third culture by marrying his original Hazara culture with Australian culture.

• This third culture is unique to him and his friends who have had similar experiences growing up in Australia.

Unique Cultural Experience

• The speaker notes that there is a gap between those who were born in Australia versus those who came as teenagers like himself.

• He feels that he can connect more easily with those who have had similar experiences growing up in Australia.

• People often get confused about where he comes from because he looks Central Asian but speaks with an Aussie accent.

What Does it Mean to be an Australian?

In this section, the speakers discuss the diverse experiences of being an Australian due to the country's history of colonization and migration.

The History of Afghan Cameliers

• The British brought over Afghan cameliers with their camels to support the discovery of Australia because the land was so vast.

• These men were essentially slaves who helped build the railway connecting Adelaide to Darwin.

• Some of these cameliers remained in Australia, but they faced racism and were not allowed to marry or have families. As a result, there are many Indigenous Australians with Afghan blood.

Other Waves of Migration

• There have been many waves of migration to Australia, including Chinese people during the Gold Rush.

• Bendigo is an example of a place where Chinese culture is prevalent due to this history.

Diversity Across Australia

• The identity of Indigenous Afghans has been lost over time, but there are still interesting documentaries about their history.

• Despite this diversity, there is still a shared Australian identity that exists.

The Beauty of Australia's Multiculturalism

In this section, the speakers discuss the beauty of Australia's multiculturalism and how it is a mix of different cultures. They also talk about the differences in culture between rural and urban areas.

Multiculturalism in Australia

• Australia has a melting pot of cultures that make up its identity.

• The culture in rural Victoria is vastly different from that in Footscray.

• It is important to harness these cultural differences and focus on their beauties.

• Australia is a place where people feel welcome regardless of their background or ethnicity.

Challenges to Australian Identity

• Australia's history started through colonization, which has led to challenges for the First Nations Community.

• The issue with Australia Day being celebrated on January 26th marks the start of oppression for Indigenous Australians.

• Moving Australia Day could help form a more united Australian identity.

Relationship with First Nations Community

• Australia needs to progress and heal its relationship with its First Nations Community.

• Indigenous Australians still face hardships and experiences due to government policies imposed on them for generations.

Starting the Conversation

In this section, the speakers discuss how difficult it is to answer big philosophical questions about Australia and its history. They also talk about the importance of having conversations like these to make a difference.

The Difficulty of Answering Big Questions

• It's hard to answer big philosophical questions about Australia because it existed before any of us got here and will continue to exist after we're gone.

The Importance of Conversations

• Having conversations like these can make a difference in educating people who don't understand or feel different cultures.

• If everyone talks about these issues and tries to educate others, we can slowly make a change and difference.

Bringing Curiosity to Different Stories

In this section, the speakers discuss ways that people can make a small impact by bringing curiosity to different stories and being mindful not to assume things.

Being Curious About Different Stories

• People can bring curiosity to different stories, especially those from people who are different from them.

• Asking where someone's family is from instead of assuming their background can allow space for them to be heard and seen fully.

Being Mindful Not To Assume Things

• It's important not to assume things when talking with people from different backgrounds or cultures. For example, asking where someone is from might be offensive if asked in the wrong tone or manner.

• By allowing people space to share fully and really listening, you can make a difference in helping them feel heard and seen.

Three Simple Questions

In this section, the speakers answer three simple questions: What are you grateful for? What have you realized?

What Are You Grateful For?

• One speaker is grateful for having a beautiful family and amazing friends.

What Have You Realized?

• No response given.

Final Question: What is a question you ask yourself?

In this section, the speaker talks about the question they ask themselves and how it depends on the day. They also discuss finding their passion and making a difference.

Passion and Making a Difference

• The speaker asks themselves what they are really passionate about.

• Finding one's passion is not an easy task.

• Although there are things that the speaker loves doing, they still don't fully understand what their passion is.

• The speaker knows that they are here to make a difference but they don't know what that difference is or how to envision it.

• The question of finding their passion is something that the speaker still asks themselves in order to find an answer.

Conclusion

The final question asked in this interview was about the question that the speaker asks themselves. They talk about finding their passion and making a difference, which are both important aspects of life. However, finding one's passion can be difficult and requires self-reflection.