Ciclo Verano Planeta 2024 - Charla de Carlos Pagni

Introduction

The host expresses gratitude for the audience's support in making the "Ciclo Verano Planeta" cultural program possible for 27 years. They thank the Hotel Costagalana and Canal 10 for their contributions to the program.

Thanking the Audience and Sponsors

• The host thanks the audience for their support in making the "Ciclo Verano Planeta" program successful for 27 years.

• Expresses gratitude towards Hotel Costagalana for their continuous support and making them feel like family.

• Acknowledges Canal 10 for providing a platform to inform and connect with viewers.

• Thanks all media outlets that contribute to the program's success by sharing information about it.

Acknowledging Contributors

The host acknowledges Marcelo Franganillo, the general producer, who brings everything together each year. They also express gratitude towards sponsors, particularly a cooperative insurance company called "La Segunda," emphasizing their commitment to putting people first.

Acknowledging Marcelo Franganillo and Sponsors

• Thanks Marcelo Franganillo, the general producer, for his efforts in bringing everything together each year.

• Expresses gratitude towards "La Segunda," a cooperative insurance company that prioritizes people's needs as a sponsor of this year's program.

Introduction of Carlos Pagni

Carlos Pagni is introduced as a guest. His background as a history professor, political columnist, and TV presenter is highlighted.

Introducing Carlos Pagni

• Carlos Pagni is introduced as a guest.

• He was born on April 13th, 1961, in La Plata.

• He is a history professor, political columnist for La Nación newspaper, and a TV presenter.

• Carlos Pagni has contributed to various media outlets, including Canal 13 and El País (Madrid).

• He has worked as a professor and researcher at the National University of La Plata and the University of Buenos Aires.

Presentation of Journalism Award

Claudia Álvarez Argüelles presents the Don Manuel Journalism Award to Carlos Pagni. The award recognizes his dedication, passion, integrity, and contribution to journalism.

Presentation of Don Manuel Journalism Award

• Claudia Álvarez Argüelles presents the Don Manuel Journalism Award to Carlos Pagni.

• The award symbolizes recognition and respect for his commitment, passion, and integrity in journalism.

• Carlos Pagni's unique storytelling ability and dedication to truth are highlighted.

• The award is represented by a pen created by Adrián Pallarols, symbolizing the magic of well-told stories that authentic journalism can provide.

• The award serves as a reminder of Carlos Pagni's valuable contribution to public opinion in society.

Carlos Pagni's Acceptance Speech

Carlos Pagni expresses gratitude for receiving the award. He reflects on being associated with Don Manuel during the summer season in Mar del Plata. He acknowledges the city's history, tourism, and ongoing efforts despite challenges.

Acceptance Speech

• Carlos Pagni expresses gratitude for receiving the award after a long time.

• He appreciates being associated with Don Manuel during the vibrant summer season in Mar del Plata.

• Acknowledges Mar del Plata's historical significance as a tourist destination and its ongoing efforts despite difficulties faced over the years.

Recognition from Councilman Julián Bussetti

Councilman Julián Bussetti recognizes Carlos Pagni's achievements and his connection with Mar del Plata. He presents a distinction on behalf of the City Council.

Recognition from Councilman Julián Bussetti

• Councilman Julián Bussetti expresses gratitude for Carlos Pagni's achievements and his connection with Mar del Plata.

• The distinction is presented on behalf of the City Council, acknowledging Carlos Pagni's career and his strong ties to the city.

Personal Connection with Mar del Plata

Carlos Pagni reflects on his personal connection with Mar del Plata, spending formative years there and forming relationships. He highlights the impact of the city on his cultural and professional development.

Personal Connection with Mar del Plata

• Carlos Pagni spent significant years of his life in Mar del Plata, between the ages of 14 and 29.

• He formed lasting relationships during this time, mentioning individuals like María Inés who are present at the event.

• Reflects on discovering cultural and intellectual aspects of life in Mar del Plata, as well as professional growth in history and journalism.

• Expresses a deep personal connection to the city beyond objective data, emphasizing how a city can shape an individual's experiences.

Introduction and Background

The speaker talks about their recent visit to Mar del Plata and their gratitude towards Planeta and Marcelo Fran Anillo. They mention being born in Tolosa, a neighborhood in La Plata, and the influence of growing up in a railway environment.

Growing up in Tolosa

• The speaker grew up in Tolosa, which had a strong railway presence due to their father's job as a train driver.

• The railway atmosphere had a nostalgic and mythical appeal for the speaker during their childhood.

Influence of Salesian Connection

• The speaker mentions the influence of Salesian priests on their life, particularly one priest from Mar del Plata who sparked their interest in interpretation.

• This early exposure to interpretation led them to develop a passion for it, which later influenced their career choices.

Fondness for La Plata

• The speaker reflects on their fondness for La Plata, mentioning its unique atmosphere as both a bureaucratic capital city and a provincial town.

• They appreciate the abundance of time available in Mar del Plata compared to living in Buenos Aires.

Relationship with Transcendence

The speaker discusses their personal beliefs and relationship with transcendence, highlighting the role of aesthetics and religious architecture.

Beliefs and Agnosticism

• While the speaker considers themselves agnostic, they acknowledge having had faith at some point but have since embraced an environment of doubt.

• They express an affinity for aesthetics and find themselves drawn to religious spaces despite being atheist.

Aesthetic Connection with Religious Architecture

• The speaker describes having a close relationship with religious architecture based on aesthetics.

• They perceive these spaces as sacred or special places that evoke certain feelings or experiences.

Choosing History and Journalism

The speaker explains their academic choices, including studying history and their eventual shift towards journalism.

Academic Choices

• The speaker initially had an interest in studying philosophy but was unable to pursue it due to the closure of the philosophy program during the military government.

• They opted for studying literature instead, as they had a slight aversion to mathematics and grammar.

Transition to History and Journalism

• While studying history, the speaker discovered a passion for journalism, particularly political journalism.

• They were drawn to the unpredictable nature of politics and the personal relationships involved, which led them away from theoretical philosophy towards rediscovering history through journalism.

Rediscovering History through Journalism

The speaker discusses how their involvement in political journalism reignited their interest in history.

Enjoying History through Journalism

• The speaker found enjoyment in exploring history through political journalism, focusing on understanding particular events and anecdotes that deviated from rationality.

• This practical approach allowed them to appreciate history more than their formal education in the subject.

How the speaker got into journalism

The speaker stumbled into journalism by chance when a friend, who was a journalist and professor at their university, asked them to write book reviews for a literary supplement. This led to their first published article and sparked their interest in journalism.

Journey into Journalism

• The speaker's entry into journalism was accidental, as they were initially studying humanities.

• A friend who was a journalist and professor at their university asked them to write book reviews for a literary supplement.

• The first article they wrote was about the memoirs of an ex-CEO of IBM.

• Seeing their name published in a newspaper had a positive impact on the speaker.

• They started working for "Ámbito Financiero" writing art and entertainment reviews.

Early experiences in journalism

The speaker shares their early experiences working as a journalist, including covering local events in Mar del Plata and eventually being assigned to cover the kidnapping and death of Guillermo Ibáñez. They also mention their previous work experience at IPF (possibly referring to Instituto de Previsión y Fomento).

Early Journalism Experiences

• Initially, the speaker covered local events in Mar del Plata that had national political implications.

• They interviewed people visiting Mar del Plata and wrote chronicles about various topics.

• Their coverage expanded to more significant events like the kidnapping and death of Guillermo Ibáñez, which required daily reporting.

• Prior to becoming a journalist, the speaker worked at IPF (possibly referring to Instituto de Previsión y Fomento).

• During this time, they interacted with Diego Ibáñez, who worked as an orderly at IPF.

Meeting Alfonsín and writing for the newspaper

The speaker recalls an encounter with former President Raúl Alfonsín during a press conference in Mar del Plata. They also mention how their writing caught the attention of the owner of Diario de Ramos, leading to further opportunities.

Encounter with Alfonsín and Recognition

• The speaker attended a press conference where Raúl Alfonsín criticized the government's intervention in CONICET.

• They wrote a chronicle about this event, which gained recognition when it reached the hands of Diario de Ramos' owner.

• As a result, they were invited to work for Diario de Ramos in Buenos Aires.

Invitation to work in Buenos Aires

The speaker discusses being invited to work in Buenos Aires by Diario de Ramos after gaining recognition for their writing. They also mention considering studying history theory in France as an alternative option.

Invitation to Work in Buenos Aires

• After their writing caught the attention of Diario de Ramos' owner, they were offered a job opportunity in Buenos Aires.

• At that time, they were considering studying history theory in France as an alternative plan.

Pursuing a Career in Journalism

The speaker discusses their decision to commit to journalism and move to Buenos Aires. They highlight the importance of working in a professional newsroom and the disappearance of traditional newsrooms as collaborative spaces.

Reasons for Choosing Journalism

• The speaker chose to commit to journalism but cannot clearly explain why they made that decision.

• They moved to Buenos Aires and immersed themselves in the field, working professionally for 18 years at Ámbito newspaper.

Importance of Newsroom Atmosphere

• The speaker emphasizes the significance of newsroom atmospheres, which they find essential for personal growth.

• They mention engaging conversations about various topics until late at night, waiting for the newspaper's release.

• The speaker believes that newsrooms provide valuable interactions and context that contribute to one's development as a journalist.

Vibrant Newsrooms and Stressful Work Environment

The speaker reflects on the vibrant atmosphere and high-stress environment of newsrooms. They discuss the intense coordination required for producing a daily newspaper and how it can be emotionally and intellectually rewarding.

Intense Work Environment

• Newsrooms are described as vibrant places with high levels of stress due to the demanding nature of producing a daily newspaper.

• Writing stories on diverse topics under time pressure is challenging but emotionally and intellectually fulfilling.

• Interactions with colleagues provide opportunities to learn from others' perspectives and gain insights into different subjects.

Challenges Faced in Newsrooms

• The speaker found it difficult to concentrate amidst noise and chaos in their office on San Martín Street.

• However, they managed to write articles despite interruptions, highlighting their ability to work effectively under challenging conditions.

Writing Outside the Newsroom

The speaker discusses their experience of writing outside the newsroom, highlighting the advantages and disadvantages of working in a quieter environment.

Writing at Home

• Since 2007, the speaker has been writing texts of a different nature with more serenity from their home.

• Writing in a calm environment allows for better focus and idea development.

• However, working alone lacks the interaction and exchange of ideas found in a newsroom.

Alcoholism and Stress in Newsrooms

• The speaker acknowledges that alcohol consumption was prevalent in newsrooms due to the high-stress nature of the work.

• The combination of stress, late-night deadlines, and socializing often led to time-consuming activities after writing.

Changing Dynamics in News Production

The speaker reflects on how news production has changed over time, with journalists now having multiple roles across different media platforms. They discuss the impact of technology on news delivery and the ability to quickly correct mistakes.

Evolving News Production Process

• Journalists today have multiple responsibilities across various media platforms compared to earlier times when they focused primarily on newspaper articles.

• A journalist may work for a newspaper while also hosting radio or television programs and engaging in other forms of communication throughout the week.

Rapid Corrections and Information Sharing

• In contrast to before, where losing out on breaking news meant waiting until the next day's paper, now corrections can be made quickly.

• With online platforms, it is challenging to determine who reported news first as information spreads rapidly.

Impactful Journalism: Uncovering Political Secrets

The speaker recalls an impactful journalistic achievement related to exposing a political agreement. They discuss President Menem's electoral success and his attempts to pressure for re-election through unconventional means.

Context Leading Up to Exposé

• The speaker had been following the connections between Menem and other individuals for months.

• A concealed debate occurred within the Radical Party, with some members opposing Menem's actions.

Exposing the Olivos Pact

• The speaker's report on the Olivos Pact, an agreement outside constitutional rules, gained significant attention.

• This exposé occurred in late 1993 when Menem had achieved electoral success and was pressuring for re-election.

Stress and Late-Night Discussions in Newsrooms

The speaker reflects on the stress levels in newsrooms and how late-night discussions were common. They also discuss how technology has changed news production and reduced concerns about losing out on breaking news.

Stressful Environment in Newsrooms

• Newsroom work is associated with high stress due to tight deadlines and intense pressure.

• Late-night discussions were a regular occurrence as journalists would engage in lengthy conversations after finishing their articles.

Changing Dynamics of News Production

• Technology has transformed news production, allowing for quick corrections and reducing concerns about losing out on breaking news.

Conditions for Negotiation

The speaker discusses the conditions for negotiation and the role of Menem in controlling the court. They mention that Alfonsin seemed cornered by Menem, and this may have been influenced by a meeting they had where Alfonsin expressed concern about Menem's potential betrayal.

Negotiation Conditions

• Alfonsin appeared to be cornered by Menem.

• The speaker had a conversation with Alfonsin where he expressed concerns about Menem's potential betrayal.

• There were indications that something significant was happening, including a meeting at Caputo's house.

• The news of the meeting between Alfonsin and Menem caused a strong reaction within the party.

Choosing Between Dualism and Menemism

The speaker discusses the dilemma faced by the party in choosing between dualism and menemism. They mention that Jesús Rodríguez emphasized the difference between an organization (dualism) and a band (menemism).

Choosing Between Dualism and Menemism

• The party faced a choice between dualism (an organization) and menemism (a band).

• Jesús Rodríguez highlighted the distinction between an organization and a band.

• There was tension within the party regarding this decision.

Repercussions of Meeting at Caputo's House

The speaker discusses the repercussions of the meeting at Caputo's house, which generated significant news coverage. They reflect on their surprise at uncovering such a monumental story, as it involved constitutional reform, which is rare.

Meeting at Caputo's House

• The news of the meeting at Caputo's house had significant repercussions.

• The speaker was surprised by the magnitude of the story, as it involved constitutional reform.

• The rarity of such a reform made it a historic event.

• The speaker reflects on the uncertainty of witnessing another event like this in their lifetime.

Alfonsin's Reaction to the News

The speaker discusses Alfonsin's reaction to the news of the meeting at Caputo's house. They mention that Alfonsin was upset because he had attended the meeting clandestinely before becoming party president. This caused division within the party.

Alfonsin's Reaction

• Alfonsin was upset about attending the meeting clandestinely before becoming party president.

• The news caused division within the party, with some members opposing what Alfonsin had done.

• Despite this controversy, Alfonsin was elected as party president.

Alfonsin's Anger and Betrayal Concerns

The speaker discusses how Alfonsin felt betrayed and angry after seeing his actions as something that would harm him politically. They mention a conversation where Alfonsin expressed concern about Menem betraying him and contemplated drastic measures if that were to happen.

Betrayal Concerns

• Alfonsin felt betrayed and angry due to how his actions were perceived.

• He expressed concerns about Menem betraying him during a conversation with Roberto García.

• There was fear that Menem would prioritize his own re-election over everything else.

"Te has cansado de hacer daño"

The speaker recalls an interesting phrase used by Alfonsin when they crossed paths during the Constituent Assembly. They discuss how Alfonsin wanted to know who leaked information to them and how he was obsessed with finding out.

"Te has cansado de hacer daño"

• Alfonsin used the phrase "Te has cansado de hacer daño" (You have tired of causing harm) when they crossed paths.

• Alfonsin was interested in knowing who leaked information to the speaker.

• He had a conflictual relationship with the media, and this was one of those moments.

Alfonsin's Obsession with Revealing Sources

The speaker discusses Alfonsin's obsession with finding out who revealed information to them. They mention that Alfonsin wanted to know their source and how it became a point of contention between them.

Obsession with Revealing Sources

• Alfonsin was obsessed with discovering who revealed information to the speaker.

• He wanted the speaker to disclose their source, but they refused.

• This obsession caused tension between them.

Menem's Fear of Betrayal

The speaker discusses Menem's fear of betrayal and his conversation with Roberto García about it. They mention that Menem feared being betrayed by Alfonsin and even contemplated drastic actions if that were to happen.

Menem's Fear of Betrayal

• Menem expressed his fear of being betrayed by Alfonsin during a conversation with Roberto García.

• He believed that betrayal would involve losing re-election while leaving everything else intact.

• Menem contemplated extreme measures if he felt betrayed by Alfonsin.

Sleepless Nights for Alfonsin

The speaker recounts how Alfonsin had sleepless nights due to fear that everything would fail and he would be buried in history. They mention a specific moment at Suárez's house where Alfonsin appeared distracted while Zuleta spoke.

Sleepless Nights for Alfonsin

• Alfonsin had sleepless nights due to fear of failure and being forgotten by history.

• The speaker recalls a moment at Suárez's house where Alfonsin seemed distracted while Zuleta spoke.

Alfonsin's Request to Look Away

The speaker discusses an interesting interaction with Alfonsin where he asked them not to look at him. They mention that Alfonsin wanted them to focus on something else, possibly the library, and not make eye contact.

Request to Look Away

• During a conversation, Alfonsin asked the speaker not to look at him.

• He directed their attention towards something else, possibly the library.

• This request was unusual and intriguing.

The Secret and the Weight of Power

The speaker reflects on a conversation with Alfonsin where he asked if they could keep a secret. They discuss the weight of power and how having such influence as a respected journalist can be both empowering and burdensome.

The Secret and the Weight of Power

• In a later conversation, Alfonsin asked if the speaker could keep a secret.

[t=0:42:36s] The Imperfection of Journalism

In this section, the speaker reflects on the imperfections of journalism and how readers often expect journalists to have all the answers. They discuss the pressure and urgency that comes with reporting news, even when there is limited understanding or incomplete information.

The Imperfection of Journalism

• Journalists are not perfect, as imperfection is a part of everything.

• Readers sometimes expect journalists to have complete knowledge like Hegelian logic, forgetting that journalists write about current events for tomorrow's publication.

• Journalists often write about things they don't fully understand or that haven't even happened yet due to the need for timely reporting.

• Despite these challenges, journalists strive to do their best in delivering accurate information.

[t=0:43:01s] The Pressure and Stress in Journalism

In this section, the speaker discusses the stress and pressure that come with working in journalism. They emphasize the importance of doing a good job despite these challenging conditions.

The Pressure and Stress in Journalism

• Journalism is often done under urgent circumstances, leading to high levels of stress.

• Despite the stressful conditions, it is crucial to focus on doing a good job.

• The speaker shares an anecdote about Astor Piazzolla's live recording where he expressed nervousness but emphasized his commitment to performing well regardless of whether people liked it or not.

• Paying too much attention to how others perceive your work can distract from the central goal of doing it well.

[t=0:43:28s] A Story About Astor Piazzolla

In this section, the speaker tells a story about Astor Piazzolla's live recording and highlights his commitment to excellence in his craft.

A Story About Astor Piazzolla

• The speaker shares a story about Astor Piazzolla's live recording in Mar del Plata.

• Piazzolla had a concert at the Teatro Regina in Buenos Aires, celebrating the 10th anniversary of his quintet.

• Despite being nervous, Piazzolla introduced his band members and expressed his hope that the audience would enjoy their performance.

• Piazzolla understood that not everyone would like what he did, but he remained committed to doing it well.

[t=0:45:11s] Commitment to Excellence

In this section, the speaker discusses the importance of commitment to excellence in one's work. They mention a YouTube channel called "Metrop" and its documentary on Notre Dame as an example of such commitment.

Commitment to Excellence

• The speaker mentions a YouTube channel called "Metrop" that features documentaries about cities and architecture.

• They highlight a particular documentary on Notre Dame before it burned down, which allowed viewers access to areas typically off-limits to the public.

• The documentary showcases the attention to detail and craftsmanship put into Notre Dame, even in areas rarely seen by anyone.

• This commitment to excellence, even when no one may see it, ensures that the outcome is not compromised.

[t=0:47:49s] Doing Things Well Even When Unrecognized

In this section, the speaker emphasizes the importance of doing things well even when they go unrecognized. They mention working for a newspaper where their writing was anonymous but still strived for excellence. They also discuss how prestigious publications like The Economist often have anonymous authors who produce exceptional work.

Doing Things Well Even When Unrecognized

• The speaker recalls working for a newspaper where their writing was anonymous, but they still aimed to do it well.

• They mention The Economist as an example of a prestigious publication where authors remain anonymous, yet produce extraordinary articles.

• Despite the lack of recognition, doing things well has its own virtue and ensures that the outcome is not compromised.

[t=0:48:26s] Understanding the Conurbano

In this section, the speaker discusses the importance of understanding the conurbano (suburban area surrounding Buenos Aires) in comprehending Argentina's political dynamics. They highlight how Cristina Kirchner's representation of vulnerable populations in the conurbano contributes to her power.

Understanding the Conurbano

• The conurbano plays a significant role in Argentina's political landscape.

• Dualism and Kirchnerism are phenomena that emerged from and are sustained by their connection to the conurbano.

• Cristina Kirchner represents the most vulnerable layers of society in the conurbano, which gives her power and influence.

• Her attention to these marginalized communities sets her apart from other politicians who may focus on different regions.

[t=0:49:41s] Néstor Kirchner's Strategy

In this section, the speaker discusses Néstor Kirchner's strategy in gaining governability through alliances with key figures from different regions. They emphasize his control over political dynamics within his party and his son Máximo Kirchner's involvement.

Néstor Kirchner's Strategy

• Néstor Kirchner focused on achieving governability by forming alliances with influential figures from various regions.

• An example is when he met with Alberto Balestrini (Intendant of La Matanza) and Hugo Curto (Intendant of 3 de Febrero) to discuss governance.

• Néstor Kirchner controlled the political landscape by bringing together key figures from different regions, establishing the foundation for Kirchnerism.

• The speaker mentions that this story is further detailed in a book.

Strategy of Governing from the Conurbano

The speaker discusses a strategy employed by Kesner to govern the country from the conurbano, where 40% of the population and problems are concentrated. This approach aims to leverage the power and influence of the conurbano to lead the rest of the country.

Kesner's Central Strategy

• Kesner planned to govern the country from the conurbano, which represents 40% of the population and faces significant challenges.

• By focusing on this region, he aimed to address poverty and other issues affecting a large portion of the population.

• This strategy is an innovation introduced by Dualde and continued after Néstor Kirchner's presidency.

• Unlike previous leaders like Menem or Alfonsín, Kesner did not need a national network or territorial structure throughout the country.

Macri's Dream vs. Radicalism

The speaker compares Macri's political aspirations with those of radicalism and non-peronist expressions. Macri aimed to differentiate himself from traditional political movements by attempting to colonize urban areas.

Macri's Differentiation

• Macri sought to distinguish himself from radicalism and non-peronist expressions.

• His dream was centered around colonizing urban areas, particularly targeting conurbano.

• This approach aimed to break away from traditional political structures and gain support from different demographics.

Impact of Buenos Aires Province Governance on Stability

The speaker explores how changes in governance within Buenos Aires Province can impact overall stability in Argentina. Historical examples are provided as evidence.

Buenos Aires Province Governance

• Changes in governance within Buenos Aires Province have historically affected overall stability in Argentina.

• The loss of Buenos Aires Province by Alfonsín to Cafiero in 1987 destabilized his leadership.

• Menem faced a similar situation when confronted by Dualde's threat of a plebiscite in conurbano to block his re-election.

• The question arises whether the relationship between Mile and Buenos Aires Province will impact stability under the current government.

Relations Between Mile and Buenos Aires Province

The speaker discusses the potential implications of relations between Mile (current leader) and Buenos Aires Province. The presence of Cristina Kirchner's allies in the government and the avoidance of conflicts are examined.

Relations with Buenos Aires Province

• The presence of Cristina Kirchner's allies in the government raises questions about relations with Buenos Aires Province.

• It is unclear why Mile does not revise past Kirchnerist policies or engage in conflicts related to Buenos Aires Province.

• One possibility is that he considers himself part of a different political era, separate from previous fights.

• Another consideration may be avoiding awakening potential challenges from conurbano, which has a significant concentration of people facing complex problems.

Concentration of People and Complex Problems in Conurbano

The speaker highlights the concentration of people and complex problems within conurbano, explaining its significance for political dynamics.

Conurbation Challenges

• Conurbano represents an area with a high concentration of people facing complex problems.

• This region has been historically associated with moments of economic expansion in Argentina, spanning from immigration waves to the peronist era.

• However, starting around 1975 (possibly during the rodrigazo), this model began showing limitations, leading to social disintegration and marginalization.

Desintegration and Marginalization in Argentina

The speaker discusses the process of disintegration and marginalization in Argentina, focusing on the decline of an inclusive society and the rise of poverty as a systemic issue.

Disintegration and Marginalization

• Argentina experienced a shift from an inclusive society to one marked by disintegration and marginalization.

• This transformation resulted in increasing poverty rates, particularly concentrated in conurbano.

• The model that previously sustained economic competitiveness failed to generate sufficient resources, leading to recurring crises and growing poverty levels.

Economic Model's Ineffectiveness and Poverty

The speaker explains how the economic model's ineffectiveness contributes to rising poverty levels in Argentina.

Ineffective Economic Model

• Argentina's economic model is no longer competitive due to its inability to generate sufficient resources.

• Despite maintaining high aspirations, such as frequent trips to Miami, the country lacks the necessary financial means.

• This mismatch between expectations and reality results in cyclical crises that push more people into poverty.

• The year 2001 marked a significant turning point when poverty became a systemic issue rather than an isolated problem on the margins.

2001 as a Turning Point for Poverty

The speaker highlights 2001 as a turning point for poverty in Argentina, with increased unemployment rates and growing slums.

Impact of 2001 Crisis

• The year 2001 represented a significant turning point for poverty in Argentina.

• Unemployment rates soared, creating new challenges for society.

• Prior to the pandemic, there were already over 4,000 slums across the country, with half of them emerging after 2001.

• Violence stemming from social unrest has become more prevalent since then.

Centralization of Poverty and Destruction of Middle Class

The speaker discusses the centralization of poverty in Argentina and the destruction of the middle class, leading to a different perception and response to poverty.

Centralization of Poverty

• After 2001, poverty became a systemic issue that centralized in urban areas.

• Those who are not poor find themselves on the margins, similar to other Latin American countries.

• The destruction of the middle class generates resentment and shapes political climate.

Perception of Poverty and Exclusion

The speaker compares how individuals from different socio-economic backgrounds perceive poverty and exclusion differently.

Perception of Poverty

• A person from an indigenous background living in extreme poverty does not have aspirations for inclusion due to their generational experience.

The Problem of Marginalization in the Conurbano

In this section, the speaker discusses the issue of marginalization and its physical manifestation in the conurbano region. They highlight that the conurbano is not the only place where this problem exists and emphasize the diversity within it.

Marginalization in the Conurbano

• The conurbano represents a homogeneity of social, political, and economic conditions.

• It is characterized by a contrast between marginalized communities and opulent mansions.

• The conurbano is not only a place of marginality but also a stark contrast and inequality.

Exploring Villas de Emergencia

In this section, the speaker shares their experience visiting villas de emergencia (emergency villages) and explains why it was a turning point for them. They also address the question asked earlier about what to expect when visiting these areas.

Visiting Villas de Emergencia

• The speaker has extensively visited villas de emergencia while writing their book.

• These areas are diverse and not homogeneous, contrary to popular belief.

• The speaker's visit to these areas was a turning point for them personally.

Contrasts in San Isidro's La Cava

This section focuses on one specific villa called La Cava located in San Isidro. The speaker describes how there is a physical wall dividing this villa from opulent mansions nearby, highlighting the stark contrasts within the conurbano region.

Contrasts in La Cava

• La Cava is situated in San Isidro and is separated from affluent mansions by a wall.

• This physical division symbolizes the stark contrasts and inequalities within the conurbano.

• The conurbano is not only a place of marginality but also a place of extreme inequality.

Increasing Inequality in Argentina

In this section, the speaker discusses the increasing levels of inequality in Argentina. They compare the level of integration in Argentina during 1973-74 to its current state, highlighting a significant decline in social cohesion and an increase in wealth disparity.

Rising Inequality

• In 1973-74, Argentina had similar levels of integration as France, measured by the Gini index.

• Currently, Argentina's level of integration is comparable to Peru, indicating a significant increase in inequality.

• The speaker laments this shift and emphasizes that it is important to acknowledge these painful realities.

The Beginning of Marginalization

This section explores when marginalization began in Argentina. The speaker suggests that there isn't a specific birth date for this phenomenon but mentions that the year 2001 could be symbolically significant due to certain events.

Birth of Marginalization

• Marginalization does not have a specific birth date; it is a complex process.

• Symbolically, the year 2001 could be significant due to certain events that occurred.

• It is important to recognize that marginalization has been an ongoing issue with no clear starting point.

Aporophobia and Stigmatization

This section introduces the concept of "aporophobia," which refers to fear or aversion towards poverty. The speaker mentions a book by an ethical expert who studies this topic and highlights how society often stigmatizes and dehumanizes those living in poverty.

Aporophobia and Stigmatization

• Aporophobia refers to the fear or aversion towards poverty.

• Society often stigmatizes and dehumanizes those living in poverty due to various reasons.

• The speaker emphasizes the need to recognize the humanity of individuals living in poverty.

Dehumanizing Attitudes Towards Marginalized Communities

This section delves into the dehumanizing attitudes society holds towards marginalized communities. The speaker discusses how society tends to distance itself from acknowledging their existence, leading to a lack of empathy and understanding.

Dehumanizing Attitudes

• Society tends to distance itself from acknowledging the existence of marginalized communities.

• There is a tendency to view these communities as different and separate from "normal" society.

• This dehumanization leads to a lack of empathy and understanding.

Stories of Struggle and Empathy

In this section, the speaker shares their experience listening to stories from individuals living in villas de emergencia. They highlight how these stories evoke empathy and challenge preconceived notions about marginalized lives.

Stories of Struggle

• Listening to stories from individuals living in villas de emergencia evokes empathy.

• These stories reveal the harsh realities faced by individuals submerged in difficult circumstances.

• Engaging with these narratives challenges preconceived notions about marginalized lives.

Understanding Individual Circumstances

This section emphasizes the importance of understanding individual circumstances when discussing marginalization. The speaker shares an example of a young person's life shaped by their upbringing, highlighting that chance plays a significant role in determining one's path.

Understanding Individual Circumstances

• It is crucial to understand that individual circumstances play a significant role in shaping lives.

• The speaker shares an example of a young person's life influenced by their upbringing.

• Chance and circumstances beyond one's control can have a profound impact on their trajectory.

Challenging the Stabilization of Marginalized Individuals

This section explores the concept of stabilizing marginalized individuals in a state from which they cannot escape. The speaker discusses how social hierarchies exist within villas de emergencia, challenging the notion that everyone is equal and sharing everything.

Stabilization of Marginalized Individuals

• Social hierarchies exist within villas de emergencia, challenging the idea of equality.

• Living conditions near the main road are considered superior to those in more remote areas.

• The speaker challenges the romanticized notion that everyone in these communities shares everything equally.

Establishing Houses and Living Conditions

The speaker discusses the establishment of houses in certain areas, particularly in a location where there is no access to essential services such as sewage disposal. Living conditions in this area are described as challenging, with constant issues related to water and sanitation.

Living Conditions in the Area

• Houses are established in a staggered manner along routes.

• In some areas, there is no access to sewage disposal services.

• The speaker mentions living conditions at the back of a particular place where there is always water and sewage.

• There have been sightings of pigs with trichinosis and health problems among children.

• The lack of opportunities leads some individuals to resort to drug use.

Challenges for Intervention

The speaker highlights the challenges faced when trying to intervene in these areas. It requires not only state intervention but also significant economic efforts and stability over a long period of time. Additionally, the influence of drug trafficking networks exacerbates the situation.

Challenges for Intervention

• Intervening in these areas requires both state intervention and economic investment.

• The market does not reach these areas; only state presence exists.

• Drug trafficking networks play a significant role in perpetuating the issues faced by these communities.

Recurring Themes and Observations

The speaker reflects on recurring themes observed throughout their work, including issues related to intelligence services, federal justice system, and business dealings with the state. These themes persist over time and contribute to the current situation.

Recurring Themes

• Intelligence services, federal justice system, and business dealings with the state are recurring themes observed by the speaker.

• There have been public allegations linking police involvement with drug trafficking.

• The speaker questions the absence of specific cartel names in certain areas and suggests police involvement as a contributing factor.

State of Intelligence Services

The speaker discusses the state of intelligence services, particularly mentioning the closure of a particular agency and the challenges associated with handling its records. They also mention the aging workforce within these agencies.

State of Intelligence Services

• A particular intelligence agency has been closed, leaving questions about what will happen to its records.

• There is a lack of available workforce due to aging employees.

Consensus and Challenges for Progress

The speaker explores the concept of consensus in Argentina and how certain consensuses hinder progress. They discuss issues related to political control over federal justice, extortion practices, and an economy that is heavily protected.

Consensus and Challenges for Progress

• Political control over federal justice through intelligence agencies leads to extortion practices.

• Certain sectors organize themselves in ways that are detrimental to fair business practices.

• The gaming industry operates under flawed legal frameworks, leading to instability for businesses involved.

• Breaking certain consensuses related to political financing and protectionist economic policies is challenging but necessary for progress.

Generation of Poverty

The speaker reflects on poverty generation mechanisms in Argentina, suggesting that there is an organized effort behind it. They highlight the increase in poverty rates over time as evidence of this phenomenon.

Generation of Poverty

• There is an efficient mechanism for generating poverty over time.

• The speaker suggests that this mechanism is organized rather than coincidental.

• Poverty rates have consistently increased over the past 50 years.

Psychoanalysis and Political Situation

In this section, the speaker discusses their experience with psychoanalysis and transitions to discussing the current political situation in Argentina.

Psychoanalysis Experience

• The speaker mentions that they have been undergoing psychoanalysis since 1997 with the same analyst.

• They clarify that they did not end the therapy, but rather their analyst did not give them "alta" (discharge).

• The speaker emphasizes that they did not harm or kill their analyst, as it is surprising that there was no discharge from therapy.

• They describe psychoanalysis as an ongoing process without a clear endpoint.

Political Situation in Argentina

• A question is raised about the chances of a political figure named Miley, whom the person asking had voted for.

• The speaker acknowledges that there are divisions in the country despite Miley winning with 56% of the votes.

• They mention that Argentina is currently facing difficulties due to deep-rooted issues and mafias within society.

• The speaker highlights that choosing Miley was an unusual experiment where a significant portion of society opted for change and walked towards the unknown.

• They note that Miley's election was also driven by a rejection of known politicians and parties.

Future Prospects for Miley's Leadership

In this section, the discussion focuses on assessing Miley's prospects as a leader and addressing concerns about his ability to govern effectively.

Assessment of Miley's Chances

• The person asking expresses hope in Mauricio Macri but wonders about Miley's potential success as a leader.

• The speaker acknowledges that being an outsider to politics works against Miley but suggests he may need to bring about a revolution within the existing system.

• They mention negotiations, checks and balances, and division of powers as essential elements of a republic.

• The speaker notes that Miley has already presented a law with 100 articles, indicating his willingness to bring about change.

Factors in Miley's Favor

• The speaker highlights two factors working in Miley's favor.

• Firstly, the current economic crisis is evident, which creates a sense of urgency for change and favors Miley's agenda.

• Secondly, Miley possesses strong communication skills that have helped him gain support from a significant portion of the public.

Unusual Aspects of Miley's Election

This section explores the unusual aspects of Miley's election and how it challenges established political parties and figures.

Unusual Election Dynamics

• The speaker describes Miley's election as an extraordinary experiment due to several unique factors.

• They mention that around 30% of the Argentine electorate voted for Miley, representing a significant portion of society.

• The person asking adds that many radicals also support Miley despite his criticisms towards them.

• The speaker explains that people voted for Miley as an alternative to institutional opposition parties, leading to self-reflection among those parties.

Challenges and Opportunities for Miley

This section delves into the challenges and opportunities faced by Miley as he attempts to implement his economic program.

Challenges Faced by Miley

• The speaker acknowledges that being politically inexperienced and lacking a team work against Miley.

• They suggest that bringing about a revolution within a republic requires negotiation, control, and counterbalances between different powers.

• The person asking mentions concerns about the quality of Miley's economic plan given the need for stability and certainty.

Opportunities for Success

• The speaker points out two factors working in favor of Miley's success.

• Firstly, the current economic crisis is evident and creates a sense of urgency for change.

• Secondly, Miley's strong communication skills have helped him connect with a significant portion of the public.

Managing Uncertainty and Future Outlook

This section discusses the importance of managing uncertainty in leadership and how it relates to Miley's future prospects.

Managing Uncertainty

• The speaker references a poem by Borges that highlights the role of leadership in managing uncertainty for others.

• They explain that if Miley realizes he miscalculated or needs to reassess his decisions, it may lead to salary cuts and inflation concerns.

• The person asking adds that the future remains uncertain but emphasizes that it also presents opportunities.