Patrick Boucheron : "Nous sommes tous des survivants de la peste noire"

Interview with Historian Patrick Boucheron

Introduction to Patrick Boucheron

• The interview features Marion Lour speaking with historian Patrick Boucheron, who holds the chair of History of Powers in Western Europe from the 13th to the 16th century at Collège de France.

• Boucheron is noted for his bestselling work on a global history of France and has recently published a new book about the Black Death, described as a comprehensive account of this significant historical event.

Themes in "The Black Death"

• The book explores various dimensions of the Black Death, including natural, political, scientific, and iconographic aspects, emphasizing the importance of imagery in understanding this historical catastrophe.

• Boucheron refers to his work as an "archaeology of evil," highlighting how perceptions of disease have evolved over time and its impact on society.

Historical Impact and Legacy

• The discussion touches on how the Black Death (1347-1353), which resulted in approximately 50 million deaths (about 60% of Europe's population), had profound effects on societal structures and governance.

• Boucheron emphasizes that while immediate catastrophic consequences were expected from such events, they also lead to long-term changes that continue to resonate today.

Survivorship and Genetic Legacy

• He discusses how survivors from the plague represent a genetic legacy; those who survived are part of our lineage today. This connection suggests that remnants of past pandemics still exist within us.

• The conversation highlights that this is not merely metaphorical but rooted in scientific understanding regarding human genetics shaped by historical diseases.

Contemporary Relevance

• Boucheron's research expands into life sciences and environmental studies, suggesting that echoes of past plagues influence current societal fears and responses to health crises.

• He draws parallels between historical pandemics like the Black Death and contemporary issues such as COVID-19, indicating that lessons from history remain relevant today.

Artistic Representation

• The cover art for his book features a blend of classical painting styles with modern elements, symbolizing connections between past experiences with disease and present-day realities.

• This artistic choice serves to remind readers that themes surrounding epidemics are timeless and can be reflected through various forms of expression.

Human Resilience Amidst Catastrophe

• Boucheron articulates that epidemics reveal shared human experiences—defeat yet resilience—highlighting societies' abilities to confront mass mortality.

• He concludes by noting that while history often recounts suffering, it also showcases remarkable social energy during crises.

The Concept of Contagion in Historical Context

Understanding Contagion in the 14th Century

• The inability to comprehend contagion led people to attempt various remedies, which seemed absurd given their lack of knowledge about microbes.

• For them, contagion was linked to emotional states rather than physical illness; emotions were seen as contagious, reflecting a metaphorical understanding of disease transmission.

Language and Symbolism of the Plague

• Maurice de la Porte's epithets for the plague illustrate its terrifying nature: terms like "contagious," "cruel," and "enemy of humankind" highlight the emotional impact and societal fear surrounding it.

• The plague ignited a fervor in language, becoming a significant theme in literature, notably Camus' work from 1937, which reflects on its lasting presence in collective memory.

Metaphorical Interpretations

• Camus’ depiction of the plague serves as a metaphor for occupation and war, suggesting that diseases occupy both bodies and conversations.

• The ongoing discussions around COVID reflect how pandemics dominate discourse yet often leave deeper implications unaddressed.

Political Consequences of Silence Post-Pandemic

Reflection on Political Implications

• The silence following COVID may lead to political repercussions as society fails to address lessons learned from the pandemic experience.

• This silence raises questions about preparedness for future outbreaks and accountability for decisions made during crises.

Contemporary Political Landscape

• Donald Trump's actions during COVID reveal how leaders may react out of vengeance or regret regarding their pandemic responses.

• The withdrawal from international health organizations like WHO signifies a shift towards isolationism amidst global health challenges.

Historical Perspectives on Pandemics

Lessons from Past Epidemics

• Historical analysis reveals that those affected by past plagues were often unaware of their significance; historians possess hindsight that shapes our understanding today.

• The Black Death is intertwined with apocalyptic narratives; it represents not just a health crisis but also existential fears prevalent at that time.

Continuity Across Time

• Acknowledging previous pandemics (e.g., Justinian Plague), we see patterns repeating throughout history, emphasizing humanity's cyclical confrontation with disease.

• Understanding these historical contexts allows us to grasp contemporary fears related to pandemics while recognizing our collective amnesia regarding past events.

Exploring the Concept of Ignorance and Historical Context

The Beauty of Ignorance

• The speaker reflects on the beauty of placing oneself in a position of ignorance regarding historical events, emphasizing the profound nature of not knowing both the beginning and end.

• This state is described as a "stupified astonishment" by an unnamed malady referred to as "Pest," highlighting the emotional weight tied to historical suffering.

The Relevance of Plague Today

• Discussion shifts to modern implications, referencing microbiologist Henri Hubert Mollaré's statement that while plague is part of history, it remains relevant today with potential future impacts.

• Recent outbreaks, such as those in Madagascar, are noted as evidence that plague is still a current health concern and can re-emerge unexpectedly.

The Role of Institutions in Disease Management

Insights from Institut Pasteur

• The speaker shares experiences from working at Institut Pasteur, describing its significant role in monitoring diseases like plague.

• Concerns about bioterrorism are raised due to the highly transmissible nature of plague through aerosols, underscoring its potential threat.

Funding Research for Safety

• Emphasis is placed on how funding for research into diseases like plague stems from a desire to protect against imminent dangers rather than mere academic interest.

Historical Patterns and Authority

Authority During Crises

• The conversation touches on how religious authorities can exploit crises like plagues for power, drawing parallels with contemporary governance issues.

• It’s suggested that while crises can lead to authoritarian governance structures, history shows that outcomes are not predetermined.

Foucault's Perspective on Power Dynamics

• Michel Foucault's ideas are introduced regarding how epidemics influence power structures by increasing control over populations through surveillance and regulation.

Empathy and Understanding Suffering

Engaging with Painful Histories

• Reference is made to Susan Sontag’s work on empathy towards others' suffering, questioning how one should respond to pain without sensationalizing it.

Perception vs. Reality of Disease Responses

• The speaker argues against viewing disease merely as an abstract concept; instead, they highlight its complex social implications during historical outbreaks.

Calmness Amid Catastrophe

Societal Responses to Plague

• Archaeological findings suggest medieval societies did not panic during plagues but rather faced them with calmness and practical responses.

Reflection on Historical Narratives

• Acknowledgment that societies often exhibit resilience rather than chaos during crises challenges common narratives about human behavior under stress.

Conclusion: A Balanced Historical Perspective

Importance of Calm Analysis

• The speaker emphasizes historians' roles in providing balanced perspectives during catastrophic events without inflaming fears or misconceptions about societal collapse.

The Resilience of Society and Historical Reflections

The Reconstruction of Society

• The speaker emphasizes the incredible ways society finds resources to rebuild itself, drawing parallels with historical events like the Black Death.

• Urgent questions arise about transforming crises into opportunities for rethinking priorities and correcting imbalances, highlighting their political relevance today.

Understanding Pain and Change

• Acknowledgment that awareness should be driven by urgency; however, significant change often requires time and cannot be expected to happen suddenly.

• Changes occur deeply within us, but they are not always dramatic or immediate; a desire for stability can hinder transformation.

Environmental Connections

• Discussion on environmental risks such as melting permafrost releasing microbes and volcanic activity affecting climate, linking these issues to pandemics.

• The role of various animals in disease transmission is highlighted, particularly rodents as primary carriers of diseases like the plague.

Misconceptions About Disease Origins

• The narrative challenges the notion that plagues originate solely from foreign sources; instead, it suggests they can emerge from local wildlife.

• Emphasizes a broader understanding of global health that includes all living beings and their environments amidst changing ecological conditions.

Political Implications of History

• The speaker discusses how history can be politically manipulated to justify exclusionary practices against outsiders during crises.

• It is noted that while some believe plagues come from external threats, evidence shows they may also arise internally within populations.

Antisemitism Through Historical Lenses

• A critical examination of antisemitism's roots in Catholic anti-Judaism reveals its evolution into racialized forms during historical crises.

• The speaker stresses the importance of understanding this history without oversimplifying it as merely an archaic issue; it remains relevant today.