Goth vs. Goth: History of EBM

Introduction

The podcast episode is introduced as a livestream discussion between Andy Harriman and Trey on the origins of EBM (Electronic Body Music) and its relationship with trance. They also touch upon the philosophy behind EBM and its alignment with other forms of electronic music.

Origins of EBM

• Andy questions why all of EDM from the 70s and 80s, including DAF, is dismissed as not being part of EBM.

• Trey clarifies that he considers EBM to be closer related to trance and EDM rather than goth or industrial.

• Andy argues that true EBM originated from electronic dance styles like Yellow Magic Orchestra and Kraftwerk in Europe during the late 70s.

Evolution of Dance Styles

• Andy explains how dance styles went underground at the end of the 70s due to disco backlash, leading to the emergence of house music in Chicago.

• Techno followed shortly after house music, with Detroit being a significant hub for its development in the early 80s.

• Craftwork was initially viewed as electro or krautrock before being recognized as part of the techno sound.

The discussion revolves around the origins and evolution of EBM, particularly its relationship with trance, EDM, goth, industrial, and other electronic music genres.

The Relationship Between EDM, Trance, and EBM

In this section, the discussion revolves around the relationship between EDM (Electronic Dance Music), trance, and EBM (Electronic Body Music).

Trance as an Offshoot of EDM and its Connection to Industrial Music

• Trance is considered an offshoot of EDM.

• There is a discussion about whether trance has any connection or philosophy between EBM and industrial music.

• The same clubs may play both trance and EBM, but they are not necessarily the same thing.

Evolution of EDM Terminology

• The term "EDM" has evolved over time.

• In the 80s, techno was referred to as EDM.

• The term became a generic catch-all for various dance music styles.

Origins of Electronic Dance Music

• Electronic dance music originated in Europe in the late 70s with disco's transformation into a more electronic sound.

• Chicago played a significant role in the early development of techno music within warehouse parties.

EBM as an Offshoot of Industrial Music

• There is a debate about whether EBM is an offshoot of industrial music or if it has taken influences from it over the years.

• Some argue that EBM incorporates elements such as big pad washes, build-ups, and drops found in trance music.

Early Pioneers of Electronic Body Music

• Bands like Kraftwerk and Snowy Red were influential in shaping electronic body music.

• Belgium had an interesting club culture with a mix of techno, disco from America or Italy, and other related genres.

Wax Trax's Role in Popularizing Electronic Music Styles

• Wax Trax played a crucial role in merging different electronic music styles and making them more accessible to the American audience.

• Wax Trax was known for its industrial music, but it also embraced house music and other dance genres.

The Impact of Wax Trax on Electronic Music in America

• Wax Trax helped make electronic music more popular in America, where there had been a general prejudice against dance music styles.

• It played a significant role in bringing together various bands and creating a vibrant electronic music scene.

The transcript is in Spanish.

Industrial Music in Europe vs America

The perception of industrial music differs between Europe and America. Europeans associate industrial with bands like Throbbing Gristle, which is seen as an earlier version of the genre. However, many Europeans do not consider Wax Trax as industrial.

Industrial as Experimental Branch

• Industrial is viewed as the experimental branch of music.

• It is not necessarily dance-oriented or purely electronic.

• The focus is on the process and intent behind the music rather than specific musical elements.

• Industrial aims to convey ideological messages and challenge control systems imposed by governments and technology.

Evolution of Industrial Music

• The original impetus of industrial music was to awaken society from control systems.

• Despite claims of its death in the early 1980s, industrial went underground and continued to thrive.

• Experimental projects like Nurse With Wound emerged alongside more dance-oriented bands like Skinny Puppy.

• Some bands, such as Test Dept., faced pressure to change their name when exploring different styles within industrial.

Influence from Experimental Music

• The interest in experimental music extends beyond industrial into art music.

• Artists like John Cage, Philip Glass, Stockhausen, and musique concrète influenced the experimental side of industrial.

• Personal preferences towards experimental music led to a newfound appreciation for bands like The Beatles through tracks like "Revolution 9."

EBM in the Late 90s/Early 2000s

There is a disagreement regarding the connection between late 90s/early 2000s EBM and original EBM. One perspective sees them as separate entities while another questions if it comes out of trance. Additionally, there are concerns about changes in the scene due to an influx of "dude bros" leading to a more misogynistic environment.

Differentiating Late 90s/Early 2000s EBM

• Some view late 90s/early 2000s EBM as distinct from original EBM.

• The connection between the two is not clear, whether it be lyrically, culturally, or sonically.

• The introduction of harder music attracted a different audience and changed the landscape of the scene.

Influence of "Dude Bros"

• The presence of "dude bros" in the scene contributed to a more misogynistic atmosphere.

• This issue is specific to EBM and not necessarily applicable to electronic dance music (EDM).

• EDM is often associated with festival stage DJs, while electronic music has a broader scope that includes artists like Brian Eno and Tangerine Dream.

Ambient Music within Electronic Music Umbrella

There is a discussion about categorizing ambient music within the larger umbrella of electronic music. While some consider it part of electronic dance music (EDM), others differentiate it as its own genre outside of EDM.

Defining Electronic Dance Music (EDM)

• Differentiating between electronic music and EDM helps distinguish various subgenres.

• Artists like Aphex Twin can blur the line between IDM and EBM but also have ambient tracks.

• Ambient music falls under the broader category of electronic music but may not fit within the EDM framework.

Tricky Categorization

• The distinction becomes tricky when discussing specific genres like EBM.

• The focus here is on distinguishing EBM from other styles rather than defining ambient within electronic music as a whole.

Misogyny in EBM Scene

• A separate topic discussed earlier was the prevalence of misogyny in the EBM scene, which was attributed to changes in audience demographics.

Desarrollo histórico del EBM Distinction and Misunderstandings in EBM

In this section, the speaker discusses a quote from the book "Assimilate" that highlights the reaction of EBM (Electronic Body Music) to the stereotype that electronic music is effeminate. The speaker also mentions the issue of sexism and misogyny in industrial music and how it has been misunderstood by outsiders.

Quote on EBM as a Reaction to Stereotypes

• Patrick Codenys stated that EBM was a reaction to the perception that electronic music is effeminate and only for people behind keyboards.

• EBM aimed to show that electronic music can be fast, physical, and comparable to guitar-based genres.

Sexism and Misogyny in Industrial Music

• The speaker refers to an episode of Cemetery Confessions discussing misogyny in industrial music. They express their intention to revisit it as they are unsure if they agree with everything said at the time.

• The speaker mentions fighting against misogynists within their scene and expresses frustration with combating such attitudes.

Misunderstandings of Symbolism in Industrial Music

• Both industrial and EBM use military iconography and fascist symbolism as commentary, but outsiders may misinterpret it as an endorsement of fascism or white power without understanding its historical context.

• Similar misunderstandings occurred when skinheads attended industrial concerts expecting a masculine white power message but encountered openly gay men, liberals, anti-fascists, etc., leading to confusion about the true intentions behind the music.

Changing Perspectives in Industrial Music

• The early content of EBM did not promote sexism or objectification; however, bands like Combichrist introduced misogynistic and sexist themes, which the speaker finds disgusting.

• The speaker notes that industrial music used to address real issues like animal rights but became less meaningful over time. However, they express excitement about a potential turning point in the genre with more women involved and artists within the community calling out misogyny and sexism.

Machines that Sort of Layering and That

The speaker discusses the concept of machines that create layering in music.

Machines that Sort of Layering and That

• The speaker talks about machines that are capable of creating layering in music.

Technotronic and the Sound of Belgium

The speaker reflects on the instrumental version of Technotronic's track and mentions watching a documentary called "The Sound of Belgium."

Technotronic and the Sound of Belgium

• The speaker realizes that the instrumental version of Technotronic's track became "Pump Up the Jam" in the 90s.

• They mention watching a documentary called "The Sound of Belgium," which explores the rise of techno and new beat.

Scenes Merging and Boundaries

The speaker expresses their skepticism about scenes merging and people crossing boundaries in music genres.

Scenes Merging and Boundaries

• The speaker doubts that different music scenes will merge again, as people tend to stay within their comfort zones.

• They share an anecdote about someone being offended when industrial music was compared to EDM, highlighting how people have specific boundaries for genres.

Introducing Industrial Music to Newcomers

The speaker shares an anecdote about introducing someone new to industrial music.

Introducing Industrial Music to Newcomers

• The speaker recounts a situation where someone introduced another person to industrial music, but they were offended because they expected a more metal-oriented sound.

• They mention that introducing newcomers to industrial music can be challenging, as it is a diverse genre with different subgenres.

The Perception of Industrial Music

The speaker discusses the perception and interpretation of industrial music.

The Perception of Industrial Music

• The speaker shares an incident where someone was offended when industrial music was referred to as EDM, emphasizing the subjective nature of genre classification.

• They explain that people have different interpretations and experiences with genres based on their own preferences and exposure.

Genre Classification and Debate

The speaker reflects on the ongoing debate surrounding genre classification in music.

Genre Classification and Debate

• The speaker acknowledges that there will always be debates about genre classification due to the interplay between musicians, consumers, clubs, and cultural influences.

• They mention that goth music has remained alive because of continuous discussions and amendments regarding its classification.

• The speaker believes that there may never be a definitive answer to what constitutes a specific genre due to individual experiences and perspectives.

Interpretation and Experience in Classifying Music

The speaker discusses how interpretation and personal experience influence the classification of music genres. They mention the concept of "siloing" and express a desire for a wider variety of music to be played.

Personal Experience and Genre Classification

• The speaker believes that personal interpretation and experience play a significant role in how music is classified.

• They mention the concept of "siloing," which refers to categorizing music based on specific criteria or characteristics.

• The speaker expresses their opinion that evidence-based medicine (EBM) should not be excluded from classification but should be dialed back in relation to other genres.

• They desire a more diverse range of music to be played, as they feel that certain genres dominate the scene while others are overlooked.

Fascination with Diverse Music Styles

The speaker shares their fascination with the diversity of music styles, particularly within the post-punk, goth, industrial, and electronic genres. They discuss clubs that played a mix of different tracks from various artists.

Clubs Playing Diverse Tracks

• The speaker recalls clubs in Europe that would play a mix of different tracks from artists across various genres.

• These clubs would seamlessly transition between different styles such as post-punk, goth, industrial, and electronic music.

• The speaker finds this melange of styles fascinating because they appreciate being surprised by unexpected tracks and enjoy diverse musical experiences.

Preference for Specific Sound Style

The speaker discusses their preference for a specific sound style characterized by compression. They express their narrow-mindedness towards this particular style but also acknowledge the importance of variety within it.

Specific Sound Style Preference

• The speaker admits to being picky when it comes to music and specifically mentions a preference for a late 90s, early 2000s sound characterized by compression.

• They describe this sound as lacking depth compared to older music styles.

• Despite their specific preference, the speaker acknowledges the importance of variety within their preferred sound style.

Loudness Wars and Loss of Dynamism

The speaker discusses the "Loudness Wars" and its impact on music. They highlight the debate surrounding over-compression in mastering and how it affects the dynamism and emotional communication of music.

The Loudness Wars Debate

• The speaker refers to the "Loudness Wars," which involves mastering tracks to be louder than others for radio play purposes.

• They mention that this practice often leads to over-compression, resulting in a loss of depth and dynamic range in music.

• The speaker argues that contrast between loud and soft elements is crucial for creating impactful moments in music.

• They believe that without moments of silence or quiet sections, loud sounds lose their meaning and emotional impact.

Negative Effects of Over-Mastering

The speaker further explores the negative effects of over-mastering on music. They discuss debates among musicians and producers regarding the loss of soul and depth caused by excessive compression.

Negative Effects of Over-Mastering

• The speaker mentions debates within musician and producer communities about how over-mastering destroys the soul and depth of music.

• They refer to comparisons between vinyl releases, which are often considered superior due to less aggressive mastering compared to digital releases.

• The speaker suggests that certain genres, such as new forms of EBM or late 90s/early 2000s styles, may resemble trance more closely in terms of sound.

• They propose that these genres should be considered separately due to their distinct sound characteristics.

The transcript provided does not include any additional content beyond this point.

The Influence of Skinny Puppy on the Industrial Scene

In this section, the speaker discusses the influence of Skinny Puppy on the industrial music scene, particularly in relation to women's involvement and the concept of feminine gothic.

Skinny Puppy as Epitomizing Feminine Gothic in Industrial Age

• When Skinny Puppy emerged, there was a significant increase in the number of women attending industrial music shows compared to other bands.

• The chapter in the assimilate book explores how Skinny Puppy represented the feminine gothic within the industrial genre.

• The speaker finds it interesting that Skinny Puppy attracted more female fans and suggests that their music may have resonated with women due to its melodic elements.

Themes in Skinny Puppy's Music

• Skinny Puppy's music incorporates themes of body horror and challenges traditional notions of physical perfection.

• There is a fascination with flaws, ailments, and disabilities rather than striving for physical perfection.

• This approach to embracing flaws and paying attention to them may appeal more to feminine sensibilities.

Performance Art Element in Industrial Music

• The speaker mentions that some original industrial acts incorporated performance art into their shows, such as Throbbing Gristle injecting themselves or cutting themselves during performances.

• Skinny Puppy picked up on this element and introduced it further into the industrial scene.

• Genesis P-Orridge is highlighted as an example of someone who challenged gender norms through their genderqueer identity.

Interesting Chapters in Books about Industrial Music

In this section, the speaker discusses interesting chapters found in books about industrial music, including one about Skinny Puppy and another related to misogyny within the genre.

Chapter on Skinny Puppy's Influence

• The speaker found a chapter in a book that explored Skinny Puppy's influence on the industrial scene, particularly in relation to women's involvement.

• The chapter delved into the concept of feminine gothic and how Skinny Puppy epitomized it.

Misogyny in Industrial Music

• The speaker mentions another fascinating chapter related to misogyny within industrial music.

• They express interest in revisiting this topic in a future episode and plan to read the book thoroughly for better understanding.

Revisiting the Chapter on Skinny Puppy

In this section, the speaker discusses their thoughts on the chapter about Skinny Puppy and mentions potential changes that may be made to it.

Personal Opinion on Skinny Puppy's Appeal

• The speaker shares their opinion that part of Skinny Puppy's appeal lies in their incorporation of beautiful melodies amidst all the noise.

• They also mention that animal rights activism and body horror are recurring themes in Skinny Puppy's music.

Potential Changes to the Chapter

• The speaker mentions that Alex, possibly an author or researcher, was considering rewriting the chapter due to potential backlash or disagreements with its content.

• They express curiosity about what changes will be made and plan to discuss it further with Alex.

Gender Fluidity in Early Industrial Music

In this section, the speaker discusses gender fluidity within early industrial music and highlights Genesis P-Orridge as an example.

Genderqueer Identity in Industrial Music

• Genesis P-Orridge is mentioned as someone who embraced a genderqueer identity during their time in Throbbing Gristle.

• Their exploration of gender fluidity was not restricted to a specific gender or sexuality.

Fluidity and Welcoming Nature of Early Industrial Music

• The early industrial music scene was characterized by a more fluid and welcoming approach to gender and sexuality.

• It was less focused on conforming to traditional gender roles and allowed for greater exploration and expression.

Revisiting the Topic of Industrial Music and Misogyny

In this section, the speaker discusses their interest in revisiting the topic of industrial music and misogyny in a future episode.

Reading Books for Better Understanding

• The speaker plans to read books on industrial music, including the chapter about Skinny Puppy, to enhance their knowledge on the subject.

• They express both curiosity and nervousness about potential changes made to the chapter due to backlash.

Epistemological Differences with Co-host

• The speaker mentions that they had some differences with their co-host, Daniel, regarding the interrelation between early EBM (Electronic Body Music) and industrial music.

• However, they were generally on the same page with minor disagreements.

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Implicitly Placing Women's Values Within

This section discusses the implicit placement of women's values within a certain context.

Implicit Placement of Women's Values

• The discussion revolves around how women's values are implicitly placed within a specific framework.

• The speaker highlights the importance of recognizing and questioning this implicit placement.

• It is suggested that understanding this phenomenon can lead to a more inclusive and equitable society.

Supporting the Show on Patreon

In this section, the speaker talks about supporting the show on Patreon.

Supporting the Show on Patreon

• Listeners are encouraged to support the show by becoming patrons on Patreon.

• The speaker mentions that supporting the show helps in producing content and continuing its production.

• A link to patreon.com/cemeteryconfessions is provided for those interested in supporting the show financially.

Celebrating Five Years of Cemetery Confessions

This section celebrates five years of Cemetery Confessions podcast.

Five Years of Cemetery Confessions

• The speaker expresses disbelief at having reached five years of podcasting.

• Gratitude is expressed towards listeners who have been with them since day one.

• Excitement is expressed for upcoming episodes in 2019 and reaching out to guests for interviews.

Thank You for Being Part of the Community

In this section, gratitude is expressed towards listeners for being part of the community.

Gratitude Towards Listeners

• The speaker thanks listeners for their continued support and engagement with the show.

• Appreciation is expressed for being part of a community that shares a love for goth culture.

• Anticipation is expressed for the upcoming episodes in 2019.

Conclusion and Network Affiliation

This section concludes the podcast episode and mentions the network affiliation.

Conclusion and Network Affiliation

• The speaker concludes the episode by thanking listeners for their support.

• Mention is made of The Belfry, a network of blogs and podcasts to which Cemetery Confessions belongs.

• The episode ends with a reminder to stay dark until next time.

Timestamps are provided in seconds format.