Chance Conversations: An Interview with Merce Cunningham and John Cage

Collaboration Begin

In the middle 40s, John and Merce decided to collaborate on a program together. They wanted to create music and dance that could coexist as separate identities.

Collaboration Begin

• John and Merce decided to give a program together in New York.

• They wanted the music and dance to have separate identities that could coexist.

• They worked within a rhythmic structure, agreeing upon certain structure points but having freedom within those points.

Independent Identities of Music and Dance

John had the idea of creating music and dance with independent identities. They worked within a rhythmic structure that allowed them to have freedom while still having agreed-upon structure points.

Independent Identities of Music and Dance

• The idea was to have music not dependent on the dance, and vice versa.

• They worked within a rhythmic structure called "rhythmic structure" where they agreed upon certain structure points.

• Within those points, they had freedom in how the dance and music progressed.

Common Denominator: Time

John believed that time was the common denominator between dance and music. They used a rhythmic structure as their framework for collaboration.

Common Denominator: Time

• Time was seen as the common denominator between dance and music.

• They used a rhythmic structure called "rhythmic structure" as their framework for collaboration.

• Within this framework, they had agreed-upon structure points but were free to explore within those points.

Evolving Collaboration

Over time, their collaboration evolved from working within structured points to a more fluid approach where boundaries disappeared. Their goal was to be together in the same place at the same time, allowing each art form to have its own space.

Evolving Collaboration

• The structure points they initially worked with have disappeared over time.

• Their collaboration became more fluid, like the weather, where boundaries are not clearly defined.

• They aimed to be together in the same place at the same time, allowing each art form to have its own space.

Relating Dance and Music

Merce describes their approach as being together in the same place at the same time while leaving space around each art form. They aim for a harmonious relationship between dance and music.

Relating Dance and Music

• Their approach is about being together in the same place at the same time.

• They leave space around each art form, allowing them to coexist without being dependent on one another.

• The goal is to create a harmonious relationship between dance and music.

Specific Sound Relations

In some performances, specific sound cues are related to certain movements or actions in the dance. This adds an intentional connection between sound and movement.

Specific Sound Relations

• In some performances, there are specific moments where sound cues are related to movements or actions in the dance.

• For example, when Merce throws a towel down on the floor, certain sounds stop and others begin.

• These intentional connections add depth and meaning to the performance.

Choreography and Composition Communication

The main communication between Merce (dance) and John (music) is through a shared understanding of time. They do not explicitly state the length of a piece but rather trust their ability to synchronize their work within a given timeframe.

Choreography and Composition Communication

• The main communication between Merce (dance) and John (music) is through a shared understanding of time.

• They do not explicitly state the length of a piece but trust their ability to synchronize their work within a given timeframe.

• Merce may have an approximate idea of the time, but it is not something they focus on during the creative process.

Exploring Time and Rhythm

In Western art, there has been less emphasis on a theory of rhythm compared to ancient Indian art. The use of magnetic tape in the 1950s allowed Merce and John to explore the relationship between movement, music, space, and time more closely.

Exploring Time and Rhythm

• In Western art, there has been less emphasis on a theory of rhythm compared to ancient Indian art.

• The use of magnetic tape in the 1950s opened up new possibilities for exploring the relationship between movement, music, space, and time.

• This exploration led to a deeper understanding and integration of these elements in their collaborative work.

Composing without Fixed Length

Merce does not provide John with an exact length for his dances. Sometimes he may have an approximate idea, but it is not something they focus on during the creative process. Some dances are choreographed to be open-ended or can go on indefinitely.

Composing without Fixed Length

• Merce does not provide John with an exact length for his dances.

• Sometimes he may have an approximate idea, but it is not something they focus on during the creative process.

• Some dances are choreographed to be open-ended or can go on indefinitely.

Choreographing "Torse"

"Torse" is one example where the dance is choreographed in three parts. The dancers have only performed it once as it was a challenging piece. The length of the dance is not fixed, and they choose when to end it.

Choreographing "Torse"

• "Torse" is a dance that is choreographed in three parts.

• The dancers have only performed it once as it was a challenging piece.

• The length of the dance is not fixed, and they choose when to end it based on their judgment.

Ending the Performance

When the performance comes to an end, they stop the music. This is how they signal the conclusion of their collaborative piece.

Ending the Performance

• When the performance comes to an end, they stop the music.

• This serves as a signal for both Merce and John that their collaborative piece has concluded.

New Section

This section discusses the ability to hear things behind you and the potential surprises when music is paired with choreographed dance.

Hearing Things Behind You

• The advantage of having ears is that you can hear things that are behind you.

Surprises in Music and Dance Pairing

• Sometimes, when a piece of music is given to accompany a choreographed dance, it can be a surprise and not always pleasant.

• An example is given where a painter was asked to create objects for a performance, but they turned out to be too big and cumbersome for the stage.

• The physical limitations of the stage space made it impossible to incorporate these objects into the performance.

• This led to abandoning the dance piece as it was not feasible to deal with the oversized objects.

• There is an element of surprise when pairing dance with music, especially if the choreographer doesn't hear the music until the first public performance.

• The choreographer often watches from the wings during performances and may not hear much of the music due to concentration on other aspects of the dance.

• Overall, there have been surprises and delights in how dance and music work together.

New Section

In this section, Merce Cunningham and John Cage discuss their perspectives on attention and complexity in art.

Placing Attention in Multiple Directions

• It is considered lively and useful in society to be able to place one's attention in multiple ways, such as different music and different dance coming together.

• They suggest that if attention can be placed in three or more directions, it would create a complex use of faculties that prepares individuals for everyday life.

Audience Reception

• According to a conversation with someone from the theater at the University, audiences who previously had difficulty with their work due to the independence of music and dance are now beginning to enjoy it.

• As they approach the end of their careers, the audience seems more interested in seeing how long they can continue rather than objecting to their age.

• The complexity and uniqueness of their performances seem to intrigue audiences.

New Section

This section discusses an informal performance in St. Cloud and the fascinating aspects of sound and visibility.

Informal Performance in St. Cloud

• They held an informal performance labeled as such in St. Cloud, which had a challenging stage setup for dancing.

• The musicians were positioned at the back while the dancers performed at the front, creating an interesting dynamic.

• John made sounds by moving around the side, slamming doors, and incorporating electronic elements into the music.

• The acoustics were unique, and Merce found it fascinating to observe everything happening on stage, including visible musicians and intense sound experiences.

Audience Engagement and Silent Observation

The speaker describes their experience with an attentive audience during a performance. The audience was absorbed in the performance, making minimal judgments and remaining quiet throughout. At the end, there was a generous applause from the audience.

Audience Engagement

• The audience was attentive and absorbed in the performance.

• They made minimal judgments and remained quiet throughout.

• Some members of the audience left after 45 minutes, possibly due to class schedules.

• The rest of the audience stayed until the end.

Silent Observation

• The lighting was minimal, allowing for clear observation of the audience's reactions.

• The musicians were visible, creating a sense of connection between performers and observers.

• Marcel Duchamp's concept of completing the work through observer participation is mentioned.

• At the end of the performance, there was a generous applause from the engaged audience.

Importance of Performing and Exercise

The speakers discuss their personal views on performing and exercise as part of their creative process. While one speaker still performs regularly, the other focuses more on exercise to maintain physical fitness.

Performing as Part of Creative Acts

• One speaker started as a performer and continues to perform regularly.

• Performing is considered an important aspect of their creative process.

• The other speaker could get along without performing but still engages in exercise for physical well-being.

Importance of Exercise

• Both speakers acknowledge that exercise is necessary for maintaining physical fitness.

• It is mentioned that exercise helps keep one's back in shape.

Use of Chance Operations in Artistic Creation

The speakers explain how they incorporate chance operations into their artistic processes. One speaker mentions studying Zen Buddhism as inspiration for freeing their work from personal preferences. The other speaker discusses using chance operations, such as tossing coins, to make decisions in their creative work.

Inspiration from Zen Buddhism

• One speaker studied Zen Buddhism and sought to free their work from personal likes and dislikes.

• Sitting cross-legged and breathing exercises are mentioned as disciplines in Zen Buddhism.

Incorporating Chance Operations

• One speaker initially worked with the magic square but later discovered the I Ching.

• The I Ching involves tossing three coins to generate numbers between 1 and 64.

• Chance operations are considered a strict discipline for artistic creation.

• The use of chance operations has remained consistent over the years for one speaker.

• Computer printouts of the I Ching have replaced coin-tossing in recent times.

Varied Use of Chance Operations in Artistic Creation

The speakers discuss how they utilize chance operations differently depending on various factors such as the number of performers, available time, and specific requirements of a piece. They highlight that following through with chance operations often leads to new possibilities and facets in their work.

Adapting Chance Operations

• One speaker uses chance operations to determine aspects like the number of performers or gender representation in a piece.

• The extent of using chance operations may vary based on factors like time constraints or number of dancers involved.

• Despite limitations, utilizing chance operations consistently brings out new ideas and possibilities in their work.

Benefits and Limitations of Chance Operations

The speakers reflect on the benefits and limitations of incorporating chance operations into their artistic processes. They emphasize that following through with chance operations often leads to unexpected outcomes but acknowledge that time constraints may prevent full exploration of these possibilities.

Benefits of Chance Operations

• Following through with chance operations brings out ideas not thought of otherwise.

• Chance operations open up new facets and possibilities in their work.

Limitations of Chance Operations

• Time constraints may limit the full exploration and utilization of chance operations.

• The speakers strive to incorporate chance operations as much as possible within the given time frame.

New Section

In this section, the speaker discusses the relationship between technology and human beings, as well as the role of chance operations in composition.

Technology and Human Beings

• The speaker explains that technology allows for sudden shifts in perspective and action, such as going from being on the floor to being high up.

• However, without technology, individuals must find a way to transition between different states on their own.

• The speaker considers this transition to be part of the human experience.

Chance Operations in Composition

• Before using chance operations, the speaker aims to understand the range of possibilities within which a composition will take place.

• Radical questions are asked to uncover deeper insights rather than surface-level outcomes.

• The answers come through chance operations, which quickly reveal whether the questions were radical or superficial.

• If no door opens through chance operations, it indicates a superficial situation.

New Section

In this section, the speakers discuss the relationship between nature and their work together. They also explore how working with a dance company has benefited one of them.

Relationship Between Nature and Work

• Both speakers draw analogies from nature to explain aspects of their creative process.

• They refer to passages in Buddhist texts that describe enlightenment coming gradually (like natural processes) and suddenly (like lightning).

• There is a strong connection between nature and their artistic endeavors.

Benefits of Working with a Dance Company

• One speaker shares their experience with composing music for dancers after musicians rejected it.

• Dancers were grateful for the opportunity to create dances based on the music.

• Close connections with dancers have allowed for wider use of their music in society.

New Section

In this section, one speaker reflects on their long-standing collaboration with a dance company and the challenges they face as they approach a new phase in their life.

Long-standing Collaboration with a Dance Company

• The speaker has been working with the Merce Cunningham Dance Company for many years.

• Composing music for dancers has been more successful than offering it to musicians initially.

• The close connection with dancers has played a significant role in the utilization of their music in society.

Challenges and Future Plans

• Due to upcoming commitments and age, the speaker may not be able to tour with the dance company anymore.

• Despite this, they continue to bring their work with them and remain productive.

• Their focus is on discovering something new rather than performing.

New Section

In this section, one speaker discusses how their work with a violinist from the dance company has influenced their composing process.

Influence of Working with a Violinist

• The speaker is currently collaborating with Paul Zukowski, a violinist from the Merce Cunningham Dance Company.

• They are working on finishing the Friedman etudes together.

• Playing the violin involves complex physical actions that resemble dancing, leading to compromises between straightforward working and chance operations.

• Adjustments are made based on what is physically feasible while still incorporating chance operations.

New Section

In this section, one speaker reflects on the dynamic nature of collaboration and how it leads to unexpected possibilities.

Dynamic Nature of Collaboration

• Collaborating with Paul Zukowski has led to surprising outcomes.

• Initially perceived as impossible actions become possible through experimentation and learning.

• Adjustments are made based on what works best during performances, considering muscle memory and complexity of physical actions.