Dr. Immordino-Yang: How Emotions & Social Factors Impact Learning | Huberman Lab Podcast

Introduction

In this section, Andrew Huberman introduces the podcast and his guest, Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang. They discuss how emotions impact learning and how different environments shape our concepts of self.

Emotions and Learning

• Our temperament combined with our home environment and school environments shape what we know about the world.

• Different styles of learning favor different people from children into adulthood.

• Emotional systems guide what we learn and the information that we retain.

Education System

• The education system shapes how we learn information and develop a sense of meaning in life.

• This podcast is separate from Andrew Huberman's teaching and research roles at Stanford.

Sponsors

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The Role of Inspiration and Awe in Learning and Life Experience

Dr. Huberman discusses with Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang the role of inspiration, awe, and story in how we learn and experience life.

High-Level Emotional Experiences

• Inspiration and awe are high-level emotional experiences that seem fundamental to how we learn and navigate life.

• Our beliefs, experiences, interpretations of meaning, stories we conjure collectively with others become the through line that organizes our consciousness experience.

Power of Being Human

• When we hook into basic survival systems by recruiting them into narratives about reality's nature, it creates an expansive feeling that is both fundamental and high level simultaneously.

• This is the power of being human; it's the power of our intelligence at this late stage in our evolution.

Childhood Stories

• As a child, Dr. Huberman loved stories that had an ongoing challenge and played out over time, with characters evolving across the story.

• Specific passages in those books made him feel something in his body, such as chills going up his spine or down his spine.

Brain's Role in Controlling the Body

• The brain controls the body, and we have a brain to control our body.

• There is a conversation between the brain and body that is primitive and sophisticated at the same time. It involves tingles on the back of our neck that go up or down, stomach feeling tight or warm, making us cringe away or approach things.

The Role of Dialogue in Consciousness

In this section, the speaker discusses the role of dialogue in consciousness and how it is related to psychology and subjective experience.

Dialogue as a Substrate for Consciousness

• The feeling of the body becomes the substrate for consciousness and the mind.

• The ability to represent or map the state of the interior and exterior of the body is crucial.

• Antonia Dimasio taught this idea to the speaker.

Constructing a Narrative Feeling

• How do we construct a conscious feeling that feels like a narrative, belief state, emotion state, or experience?

• Embodiment plays an important role in constructing these feelings.

• The brain is a specialized organ that provides enough processing power to construct all kinds of mental states.

Interdependence of Biology and Culture

In this section, the speaker talks about how social interdependence affects our biology and how we interact with each other to construct meaning via cultural spaces.

Social Interdependence

• Our biology is inherently social, and we are directly dependent on other people for our sense of self.

• We co-construct meaning via cultural spaces that lead to feelings of "us."

• There's still much unknown about how we construct narratives from feelings.

Brain as Specialized Organ

• The brain is not separate from our bodies but rather an elaboration of bodily processes.

• It provides enough processing power to construct all kinds of mental states.

• Mental states can affect bodily reactions neurochemically.

Constructing Meaningful Chains of Ideas

In this section, the speaker discusses how early experiences lay templates for recognition later in life. He also talks about constructing meaningful chains of ideas throughout life.

Early Experiences

• Early experiences lay templates for recognition later in life.

• We're always consciously or subconsciously trying to experience the same kind of awe or inspiration.

• The feeling is the same, even though circumstances vary.

Constructing Meaningful Chains of Ideas

• Humans tap into possibility spaces and construct them into meaningful chains of ideas and experiences over time.

• The legacy of our intelligence is constructing stories that produce meaning.

• Hunger for structure for feelings leads to constructing narratives.

Recognition of Feelings Across the Lifespan

In this section, the speaker discusses how feelings are experienced in both the body and brain simultaneously. They use an example of their daughter to explain how physiological attachment states can be elaborated into mental states as children grow and develop.

Developmental Framework for Emotions

• Feelings are experienced in both the body and brain simultaneously.

• Example of a two-year-old child's visceral attachment to their mother.

• As children grow, they begin to conceptualize emotions in terms of ideas rather than just physical sensations.

• Elaboration of basic physiological attachment states into mental states occurs across development.

The Basic Functions of Life

In this section, the speaker discusses how the nervous system navigates a complex world and how survival and reproduction are the two basic functions of all organisms.

Survival and Reproduction

• The two basic functions of all organisms are survival and reproduction.

• Primitive physiological regulatory capacities keep an organism alive by adjusting to internal and external needs.

• Managing in a complex environment over time is a very dynamic process that requires constant adjustment.

Emotions and Brain Systems

In this section, the speaker talks about emotions based on pain or pleasure recruiting the same brain systems, including the hypothalamus.

Emotional Responses in MRI Scans

• People's emotional responses were studied using MRI scans while watching stories that invoked emotions like compassion or admiration.

• Feeling emotions about physical direct things or complex elaborated things builds neurobiologically developmentally and evolutionarily.

• Emotions based on pain or pleasure recruit the same brain systems, including the hypothalamus.

Development of Mental States

In this section, the speaker discusses how humans develop the ability to appreciate mental states and build stories around them.

The Leap to Appreciating Mental States

• Humans have a unique ability to fully appreciate mental states.

• Children do not fully appreciate mental states yet, but adolescents start to conjure and simulate them awkwardly.

• Adults build more facility and wisdom around conjuring stories that make sense out of what others may have experienced.

Development Across the Lifespan

• Development across the lifespan involves learning how to notice things that become salient and building a story out of them.

• As people age, they pick out things that matter in more subtle ways due to their lived experiences.

• The basic fundamental processes around emotions are always driving the need to make a story.

Basic Emotions and Ideas

In this section, the speaker talks about how basic emotions drive our need to create narratives that transcend time.

Complex Dynamics of Basic Emotions

• Humans share physiological states with other organisms that are basically action programs.

• These action programs become ideas that transcend time and become narratives, beliefs, values, identities, etc.

Embodied Experience

• Our ability to experience the world in a real physical embodied sense allows us to operate far beyond it.

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Hierarchical Organization

In this section, the speaker discusses how there is a hierarchical organization in the visual system and how it relates to development.

Visual System

• The visual system has a hierarchical organization where there is an elaboration or build-up from basic building blocks.

• There is a similar hierarchical organization in development where we first learn basic building blocks before moving on to more complex examples.

Representation of Emotion

In this section, the speaker discusses how adding context and story to a situation changes the way emotions are processed in the brain. They also discuss brain scanning experiments that show how different brain networks are activated when viewing physical injuries versus emotional situations.

Adding Context and Story

• Seeing someone break their ankle versus learning about someone's loss of a spouse are two fundamentally different visual images.

• The need to impose story changes the way emotions are mapped in the brain.

• Brain scanning experiments have shown that there is a whole system of brain areas called the default mode network that activate when people add context and story to a situation.

Default Mode Network

• The default mode network is made up of characteristic regions in the back middle of the head and some characteristic regions in the lateral parietal.

• These regions were first described in neuroimaging experiments where people were asked to rest and relax for a few minutes.

• When people rest, they start daydreaming about all manner of stories, imagining themselves into future scenarios or thinking about other people's mind states.

• Our findings showed an increase in activation in these default mode systems when we ask somebody to do an effortful mental task involving contextual knowledge.

Activating Default Mode Systems

• True stories that require contextual knowledge activate these default mode systems.

• These stories involve bringing up relevant knowledge, personal experiences, memories, hypothesizing, generating some kind of narrative or storyline that would accommodate their situation.

• Contrasting true stories with admiration for skill did not activate these systems.

The Brain's Response to Inspiring Stories

In this section, the speaker discusses how the brain responds to inspiring stories and how it activates different neural systems based on psychological reactions.

Neural Systems Activation

• The brain's response to inspiring stories is not about physical skill but rather the conditions under which a person engages in those actions.

• Trial by trial experiments show that depending on what you say about a story, whether it inspires you or not, we can predict that you will activate these neural systems differently based on your psychological reaction.

• The way in which the brain balances its activity and crosstalk around different parts that are contributing to different kinds of processing is unique when someone is transcending their situation.

Ethical Interpretations

• When people watch inspiring stories like Malala's, they may have an ethical interpretation of what they see. They may realize that not everyone has access to education and feel inspired to do something about it.

• People use their own self-awareness as a springboard to appreciate what it must be like for others. This leads them to think about broader inferential narratives around what all this means.

Layering of Emotions

• There is a layering of emotions when experiencing or observing somebody else's feeling state or experience. It involves real physical body sensations, observation and sensation perception of the world around us in a physical or social sense, and elaboration into cultural narratives that become feeling states.

• The meaning process makes us uniquely human and develops our emotions over time.

The Role of Music in Recognizing Emotions

In this section, the speaker discusses how music and other external stimuli can influence our emotional states. He notes that the music we listen to during adolescence is particularly influential in shaping our emotional templates.

The Influence of Adolescent Music on Emotional Templates

• Adolescence is a time when we come to recognize the extremes of feeling state templates.

• The music we listen to during adolescence is one of the main ways in which we come to recognize these feeling state templates.

Using Music to Prepare for Podcasts

• The speaker uses music to prepare for his solo podcasts.

• He selects music based on the emotional palette he needs to deliver a particular message effectively.

Narrative Distancing and Emotional Buffering

• Some people have more narrative distancing than others, meaning they have more of a buffer between their experience of the outside world and their internal landscape.

• Lack of narrative distancing can lead to transportation, where individuals are transported by stories and feel emotions as if they were experiencing them firsthand.

• The speaker notes that he has more narrative distancing than his partner when it comes to violence due to his exposure growing up.

Feeling Inspired by External Stimuli

In this section, the speaker discusses how external stimuli such as speeches or social media posts can inspire us. He questions whether these emotions are truly novel or simply a return to familiar feeling states.

David Goggins' Intensity and Authenticity

• David Goggins is an impressive human being who lives up to his intense public persona.

• The speaker has met him personally and attests that there is no false pretense behind his intensity.

Mapping Familiar Feeling States onto External Stimuli

• When we feel inspired by external stimuli, such as speeches or social media posts, we may be mapping to some subconscious awareness of that feeling in ourselves.

• The speaker questions whether we can truly have novel emotions past age 15 or if we are simply returning to familiar feeling states.

The Role of Experience and Culture in Perception

In this section, the speaker discusses how humans impose their own expectations and cultural values onto what they perceive. This affects not only basic visual scenes but also complex social stories.

Perception is a Combination of Experience and Context

• As humans gain more experience, they adapt to the contexts in which they live.

• Cultural values affect what people notice and attend to in the world.

• Humans impose their own expectations onto what they perceive.

Cultural Values Affect Perception

• People from different cultures may interpret the same scene differently based on their cultural values.

• Our personal experiences shape our interpretation of complex social stories.

Implications for Understanding Genocide

• Dehumanization allows people to shift their story set and bring another set of values into a space.

• Studies have shown that anyone can respond to an authoritarian figure under certain conditions, leading to acts such as genocide.

The Impact of Personal Story on Empathy

In this section, the speaker discusses how personal stories can inhibit neural circuits that invoke empathy and lead to a lack of empathy towards others.

Personal Stories and Empathy

• Personal stories that focus on one's own suffering can suppress neural circuits that invoke empathy.

• This phenomenon makes sense from a neurobiological perspective.

• Developing dispositions to question our own motives and engage with other people's perspectives systematically can protect us against this possibility.

Mental Flexibility and Emotional Disposition

In this section, the speaker talks about developing mental flexibility through emotional disposition in order to rise above biases and engage with other perspectives.

Mental Flexibility

• Developing dispositions for questioning assumptions and engaging with other perspectives leads to mental flexibility.

• Reinforcing biases through social media or education systems is detrimental to mental flexibility.

• Engaging reflectively with our own beliefs, values, and preferences helps us develop mental flexibility.

Emotional Disposition

• Emotions are fundamental drivers of thinking, decision-making, relationship building, community lives, and personal well-being.

• Learning to experience emotions in more curious open-minded flexible ways leads to wisdom around when we need to query our own emotions.

• Rising above emotions allows us to think about broader systemic historical ethical civic implications of narratives we tell ourselves.

Importance of Exposing Oneself to Different Perspectives

In this section, the speaker emphasizes the importance of exposing oneself to different perspectives and ideas. He talks about how we are all essentially working with the same building blocks of neurons and neurochemistry, and how dopamine is the one true universal currency that everyone is working for.

Importance of Foraging Broadly

• The speaker follows different accounts on social media for various reasons such as entertainment, information, challenging himself, and desire to be baffled.

• It's important not to be siloed in one's thinking or exposure to different things on social media.

• The speaker believes that people should try to forage broadly in terms of ideas and ideologies instead of being scared to be exposed to something they hate.

Cognitive Dissonance

• Dissonance is difficult and takes work to resolve.

• There is a way to step back from cognitive dissonance and observe it from a place of curiosity about what's driving those mechanisms in people.

Divisiveness Caused by Social Media

• Social media has caused divisiveness because people only follow, listen to, and obey certain kinds of information while ignoring others.

• The pandemic has made this issue more apparent.

Education on Adopting Encompassing Modes of Learning

• The speaker discusses what can be done at a concrete level in terms of education for younger people as well as those out of high school.

• Young people should be taught how to unpack their own beliefs by querying them about their beliefs when they follow something and asking them why.

• People should revisit their own beliefs and query them when they disagree with someone who has a different value system.

Conclusion

• The speaker believes that the way in which we educate our young people is crucial to adopting more encompassing modes of learning and experiencing the world.

The Problem with Western Education System

In this section, the speaker discusses the problems with the Western education system and how it discourages students from engaging with complex perspectives on topics and ideas.

Problems with Current Education System

• The current education system has basic beliefs about what counts as knowing and what is worth thinking about.

• Students are actively discouraged from playing with ideas, deconstructing their beliefs, and engaging with complex perspectives on topics and ideas.

• The current education system judges learning outcomes based on standardized tests rather than engaging students in intellectual curiosity.

• We need to build an education system that engages people systematically in intellectual curiosity.

Alternative Educational Systems

• There are educational systems like the Performance Assessment Consortium in New York City that engage students in multi-disciplinary projects where they explore a topic for months to years.

• These alternative systems assess kids through alternative ways of assessing kids where they work for months to years depending on the project.

• Students present their work, query it, talk about their own learning process, and make decisions.

Importance of Age Appropriate Education

In this section, the speaker emphasizes the importance of age-appropriate education for young children.

Little Kid Education

• Little kid education needs to be age-appropriate by providing opportunities for children to touch, smoosh, taste things that intrigue them.

• Children bring their natural curiosity which expands their range of ways they can leverage that curiosity to discover new things they hadn't known to think about before.

Standard Educational System

• The standard educational system discourages natural human proclivity to engage curiously and meaningfully with deep thinking about ideas and the world.

• Students are taught to turn off their natural curiosity, which is considered insubordinate.

• The current education system creates a desire for students to be like computers rather than humans.

Emotional Buzz of Performance

In this section, the speaker discusses how the current education system creates an emotional buzz around performance that can lead some students to dissociate from material they don't enjoy.

Emotional Buzz of Performance

• The emotional buzz in the current education system is performance-based.

• For students who don't get that buzz from performance or intrinsically love certain subjects, they emotionally dissociate from the rest of the material.

The Importance of Regular Blood Work

In this section, the speaker discusses the importance of getting regular blood work done to better understand one's body and reach health goals.

Regular Blood Work

• Getting regular blood work done is important because many factors that impact immediate and long-term health can only be assessed with a quality blood test.

• Many blood tests out there only provide information about certain lipid or hormone markers without any guidance on what to do with that data.

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Learning in School: Rote Memorization vs Emotion-Based Learning

In this section, the speakers discuss how schools often prioritize rote memorization over emotion-based learning and how this affects students' engagement with academic subjects.

Rote Memorization vs Emotion-Based Learning

• Schools often prioritize rote memorization over emotion-based learning, which can lead to students focusing more on performance than intrinsic pleasure in what they are learning.

• Educators should focus on setting up rich problem spaces that invite students to engage with something meaningful and interesting to them. This can help evoke an appreciation for academic subjects even in students who struggle with them initially.

• Emotions play a key role in learning - whatever you're having emotions about is what you're thinking about and therefore learning about. If emotions are focused on high-stakes accountability measures rather than the ideas themselves, then that is what students will learn how to think about and perform rather than engaging with the intrinsic power of using academic subjects to understand the world in a different way.

• To engage students, educators should encourage them to use their academic skills in a way that gives them power to do what they are interested in doing. This can involve using writing, math, persuasive argument skills, filmmaking skills, etc., to tell the story of something that is deeply meaningful and powerful to understand.

The Role of Education in Development

In this section, the speaker discusses the role of education in personal development and how it is often misunderstood.

The Importance of Personal Development

• Education should focus on personal development rather than just academic achievement.

• Personal development involves engaging with complex ideas and developing a toolkit for understanding the world.

• The quality of personal development is more important than academic achievement.

Issues with Traditional Education

• Traditional education systems often prioritize academic achievement over personal development.

• This can lead to mental health crises and a lack of agency in young people.

• Traditional education often focuses on finding one solution to a problem rather than exploring multiple possibilities.

The Role of Educators

• Educators should help students develop their own beliefs and goals through reflection and inquiry.

• Personal development can lead to virtuousness or evil, but it is important for individuals to learn how to manage these capacities within themselves.

Neuroscience Course at Stanford

In this section, the speaker talks about a neuroscience course taught to first-year medical students at Stanford. The course is team-taught by experts in various fields related to neuroscience.

Expertise and Teaching

• The best instructors come to the table with incredible expertise and engage learners with their ideas.

• Some instructors teach from the position of expertise while also flipping back and forth to the position of novice learning it for the first time.

• This intellectual curiosity ignites emotional systems of learners' brains in a powerful way.

Personal Experience

• The speaker shares his personal experience of being blown away by neural development when he teaches it.

• Dr. Sean Mackey's teaching on pain and emotion is an example of how an expert can describe a system as if they are learning it again for the first time.

Trajectory into Education

In this section, the speaker talks about his background growing up on a farm and getting involved in education where he was exposed to students from different backgrounds.

Background

• The speaker grew up on a farm with animals and tried growing food that they ate.

• He had different experiences before getting involved in education.

Exposure to Different Backgrounds

• The speaker got exposed to students from different backgrounds when he started teaching.

• This exposure is important as a backdrop for understanding what has been discussed earlier.

Early Fascination with Education and Learning

In this section, the speaker talks about their early fascination with education and learning. They describe how they were always interested in engaging with people who knew things they didn't, and how they learned by doing.

Early Memories of Educating Others

• The speaker's first memory of educating others was when they were six years old. They went on vacation to Petoskey Michigan and learned about 200 million year old fossilized worms in stones.

• The speaker was fascinated by these stones and brought some back to show their second grade class. They were then asked to teach the class about the stones, which led to them giving talks all the way up to fifth graders.

• The speaker enjoyed being able to make meaning out of something in a way that inspired other people.

Learning by Doing

• The speaker was always interested in learning by engaging with other people who knew things they didn't. They traveled to different countries, stayed on farms, worked with kids off the street in Siberia, and documented traditional boat construction in Canada.

• When the speaker cut their hand at a job site and couldn't run machinery due to workers comp, they had to figure out what to do with themselves. They decided to use their French major from college as a starting point for finding work.

Finding a Career Path

In this section, the speaker talks about how they found their career path after college. They discuss how they never thought they could be a scientist but loved science.

Post-College Uncertainty

• After college, the speaker majored in French and didn't know what to do with themselves. They never thought they could be a scientist but loved science.

Finding a Career Path

• No bullet points for this section. The speaker talks about how they found their career path by working as a research assistant and eventually going to graduate school. They also discuss how they were torn between trying to build things and learning by engaging with other people in different cultural spaces.

Becoming a Science Teacher

In this section, the speaker talks about how he became a science teacher and his experience teaching seventh-grade science in a diverse school district.

Teaching AP Biology and Physics

• The speaker convinced the Massachusetts Board of Education to allow him to teach sections of AP biology and physics despite being only 23 years old.

• He got an interview with a Public School District in South Boston where they were desperate for a teacher.

• The Massachusetts Board of Education gave him provisional teacher certification based on the coursework he had done.

Teaching Seventh Grade Science

• When he arrived for the interview, he was asked to teach full-time seventh grade instead of AP classes.

• He taught 130 seventh graders in a fully equipped high school classroom with microscopes and other scientific equipment.

• The middle school had just been shut down due to insufficient funding, so the middle school kids were pushed into the high school space.

• The Massachusetts Board of Education changed the requirements for science instruction and curriculum from separate subjects each year to an integrated interdisciplinary approach across all grades.

Building an Interdisciplinary Curriculum

• The speaker built out a new curriculum for seventh grade around this interdisciplinary approach to science with help from other teachers.

• The curriculum was very hands-on and focused on building a web of concepts that helped students appreciate the dynamic complexity of the natural world.

• Some professors from Cornell sent him materials on hominid evolution, which he used to build out his curriculum.

Teaching Diverse Students

• The school where the speaker worked was one of the most culturally diverse in the nation at that time, with 81 languages spoken out of 1100 kids.

• Kids from all over the world were arriving in his science class and using scientific ways of exploring the world to understand their own origin stories and place in the world.

Bringing Science to Real-World Problems

In this section, the speaker talks about how she became interested in bringing science to real-world problems and how she started studying cognitive neuroscience and developmental psychology.

Interest in Bringing Science to Real-World Problems

• The speaker was inspired by a class discussion on hominid evolution and realized that she could bring science to real-world problems.

• She wanted to help kids figure out who they are in a multicultural space and become scholars who engage systematically with ideas.

• The speaker went back to the school district where she worked and observed classes, interviewed students, and worked with teachers.

Studying Cognitive Neuroscience and Developmental Psychology

• The speaker went to night school at Harvard Extension School to study cognitive neuroscience and language.

• She realized that kids were doing all this meaning-making while adults were doing supportive meaning-making.

• The speaker set out to study the ways in which culture, sociality, biology, physiology, survival mechanisms, development shape the brain.

Integrating Biology and Psychology

• The speaker wanted to understand how biological development and psychological development are two sides of who we are.

• She aimed at understanding how universals among us can inform what's happening now in a classroom interaction.

• The speaker approached it from taking what's happening now as opposed to just saying what is actually happening underneath the surface of behavior.

The Importance of Emotional States in Learning

In this section, the speaker discusses how emotional states act as filters for learning and decision-making, especially for young people. She shares her personal experience of being drawn to a graduate advisor who gave her room to explore and make mistakes.

Emotional States as Filters

• Emotional states act as filters for learning and decision-making.

• Liking a teacher or subject can influence interest in learning.

• Personal curiosity can drive exploration and discovery.

Openness to Ideas

• Fear of getting cancelled or offending others hinders open exploration of ideas.

• Tolerance for all ideas is necessary for critical thinking.

• Safe spaces should allow discussion of any idea while respecting others' experiences.

Navigating the Landscape

• Demonstrating the value of openness may encourage more open exploration of ideas.

• Starting discussions about politics and current events in elementary school is fraught but could promote critical thinking.

Emotions as Drivers for Thinking

In this section, the speaker clarifies that emotions are not just filters but also drivers for thinking. She emphasizes the importance of thoroughly understanding complex topics through interrogation.

Understanding Emotions

• Emotions are not just filters but also drivers for thinking.

Thorough Interrogation

• Thoroughly interrogating complex topics leads to better understanding.