Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

New Section

In this section, the speaker discusses the phenomenon of companies over-hiring during the pandemic and the roles that have emerged within organizations.

Companies Over-Hiring During Pandemic

• The speaker criticizes companies for over-hiring during the pandemic, mentioning roles like agile coaches, product owners, product Ops, and business analysts as unnecessary.

• These roles are described as part of a theater where individuals are not real product managers but are paid excessively for their project management tasks.

Product Management Trends and Insights

This section delves into insights shared by Marty Kagan regarding product management trends, challenges, and advice for professionals in the field.

Marty Kagan's Insights

• Marty Kagan has extensive experience in helping product teams and managers enhance their skills and careers.

• He highlights issues such as over-hiring in product management and adjacent functions, termed as "product management theater."

• The discussion covers why much online product management advice may be misleading and how to differentiate between project managers and true product managers.

New Book Release and Industry Direction

This segment introduces Marty Kagan's new book release "Transformed" while exploring key topics related to shifting towards empowered teams in product management.

Marty Kagan's New Book

• Marty Kagan is launching his latest book "Transformed," focusing on pivotal aspects of modernizing product management practices.

• The conversation touches on empowering teams, essential skills for effective product management amidst AI advancements, and indicators of being stuck in a feature team.

Spiciness in Writing & Industry Changes

Here, Marty Kagan discusses his recent provocative writing style concerning shifts in the industry landscape impacting product professionals.

Provocative Writing Style

• Marty explains his intensified rhetoric in recent writings due to evolving industry dynamics that demand heightened awareness from professionals like him.

• He expresses concerns about potential disruptions affecting products and customers while emphasizing a proactive approach to anticipate industry changes effectively.

New Section

In this section, the speaker discusses the challenges and fears prevalent in the product, design, and engineering communities. They express a desire to share insights on how individuals can safeguard their careers and companies amidst this chaos.

Understanding Different Perspectives

• The speaker emphasizes the importance of acknowledging differing perspectives within the product community. They highlight that while both parties aim to assist the product community, they do so through distinct approaches.

Value in Diverse Perspectives

• The speaker commends the value of diverse perspectives offered by the other party, appreciating the broad range of insights shared. They mention being a paid subscriber due to finding immense utility in these varied viewpoints.

Seeking Common Ground

• While recognizing the significance of unique practices highlighted by others, the speaker articulates their focus on identifying common principles and practices among successful product companies. Their goal is to promote consistent innovation based on proven methodologies.

Exploring Goals and Approaches

This segment delves into contrasting objectives between different entities within the product community. The discussion revolves around distinct goals and strategies employed to enhance success in product development.

Different Aims in Product Development

• The speaker delineates their objective of aiding startups and established companies in achieving optimal success rates through proven techniques. They emphasize a focus on enduring strategies rather than novel trends.

Embracing Founder Influence

• Acknowledging the significant impact founders have on startups regardless of methodologies used, the speaker underscores admiration for founder-driven successes while highlighting differences in approach compared to other entities.

Navigating Interview Dynamics

This part sheds light on interview dynamics from an interviewer's perspective, emphasizing challenges faced when balancing probing questions with guest comfort during discussions.

Balancing Inquiry and Comfort

• The speaker reflects on navigating interviews where challenging topics arise but must be delicately addressed due to time constraints. They discuss maintaining a balance between pushing back against ideas and allowing guests space to share their perspectives comfortably.

Guest-Centric Approach

• Emphasizing respect for guests' viewpoints, the speaker highlights providing a platform for guests to express their thoughts freely without feeling interrogated. They acknowledge discrepancies between public portrayals and internal realities within companies.

Encouraging Uncomfortable Conversations

Product Management Theater and Leadership Challenges

In this section, the speaker discusses the concept of product management theater and product leadership challenges in organizations.

Product Management Theater

• The speaker introduces the concept of "product management theater" and "product leadership theater" as areas that need attention within organizations.

• Companies tend to over-hire during challenging times like the pandemic, leading to a lowering of hiring standards and increased financial costs.

• The predicted impact of generative AI is highlighted, causing uncertainty among leaders due to potential disruptions in traditional practices like programming.

Leadership Challenges

• Concerns are raised about team sizes in companies, especially outside Silicon Valley, where roles have proliferated excessively.

• Smaller teams are noted to often produce better results than larger ones, emphasizing the need for streamlined structures.

Impact of Remote Work on Innovation

This section delves into the impact of remote work on innovation and velocity within companies.

Remote Work Challenges

• Remote work has negatively affected both innovation and velocity within organizations, leading to slower progress and reduced levels of innovation compared to collocated teams.

• Companies outside Silicon Valley face even greater challenges with remote work due to excessive investments in additional roles like agile coaches and project managers.

Process Overload and Transformation Needs

The discussion shifts towards process overload within companies and the necessity for transformation in product development approaches.

Process Overload

• Many companies rely heavily on processes like SAFe without achieving desired outcomes or cost-effectiveness.

• Lack of tangible outcomes from extensive processes leads to high costs, inefficiencies, and wasted resources within organizations.

Transformation Imperatives

• Companies must reevaluate their product development strategies by focusing on customer needs while optimizing spending for better returns.

Feature Teams vs. Product Teams

In this section, the speaker discusses the differences between feature teams and product teams, highlighting the roles of product managers within these structures.

Feature Teams

• Feature teams do not require project managers as they already have individuals who can cover project management tasks.

• Engineers and designers in feature teams often prefer handling tasks themselves rather than working with a product manager.

• Product managers in feature teams are perceived as not bringing significant value to the team.

Product Teams

• In contrast to feature teams, product teams focus on solving problems rather than delivering features.

• Product teams are given specific problems to solve, emphasizing outcomes over output.

• Strong product companies prioritize delivering value over simply shipping products.

Role of a Product Manager

This part delves into the essential role of a product manager within a strong product company and how their responsibilities differ from those in feature teams.

Importance of Product Managers

• A product manager is crucial when focusing on outcomes that require solutions beyond usability and feasibility.

• The role demands understanding customers and business deeply, skills that engineers and designers may lack.

• A real product manager does not engage in activities like wireframing for designers but focuses on strategic responsibilities.

Developing Skills for Product Management

Here, the discussion centers around developing the necessary skills to become an effective product manager and contribute meaningfully within a company.

Skill Development

• Individuals with the title of "product manager" may lack essential skills for the role despite carrying the title.

• Motivated individuals can enhance their skills to fulfill the requirements of a genuine product manager.

Empowered Product Team and Product Manager Role

In this section, the speaker discusses the role of a product manager within an empowered product team, emphasizing the importance of being a creator rather than just a facilitator.

The Role of a Product Manager

• A product manager in an empowered product team is seen as a creator, not just a facilitator.

• The essence of the "why" in product management comes from the product strategy, highlighting that a product manager needs to be deeply involved in creating solutions alongside design and engineering.

• Key skills for a product manager include becoming an expert on users and customers through direct interactions (e.g., visiting customers), understanding data analytics related to product usage and purchasing behavior.

Responsibilities and Expertise

• Product managers are responsible for representing compliance, sales, marketing, financial costs, monetization issues within the team.

• They play a crucial role in decision-making by providing knowledge on various aspects like legal constraints, market understanding, and avoiding design by committee scenarios.

Evolution from Product Owner to Empowered Product Manager

This part delves into distinguishing between a product owner and an empowered product manager along with their respective roles within feature teams.

Contrasting Roles

• A clear distinction is drawn between a product owner (focused on delivery processes) and an empowered product manager who engages more deeply in strategic creation processes.

• Feature team managers often end up doing project management tasks but lack true ownership over strategic decisions compared to empowered product managers.

Challenges Faced by Delivery Team Product Owners

The speaker addresses challenges faced by delivery team owners and feature team managers as companies realize the limitations of these roles.

Facing Reckoning

• Companies are beginning to recognize that traditional roles like delivery team owners may not align with actual business needs leading to potential reevaluation of these positions.

Promoting Understanding of Product Management

In this section, the speaker discusses the importance of promoting understanding in product management and highlights the challenges faced by new product managers in finding reliable resources and guidance.

Importance of Understanding Product Management

• The frustration lies in the misconception about what a product manager does, perpetuated by certifications that focus more on project management.

• Many resources available online primarily reflect a project management perspective rather than true product management practices.

• New product managers often struggle to find accurate information due to the dominance of feature team content online.

Seeking Reliable Resources

• Encouragement for individuals to take control of their career path and seek out quality resources for learning and development.

• Emphasizes the importance of discernment in evaluating information found online, urging individuals to determine their desired role within product management.

Challenges in Accessing Quality Product Management Information

This segment delves into the challenges faced within communities focused on product management, where misinformation can proliferate despite good intentions.

Community Challenges

• Communities are abundant but often lack accurate insights from successful companies, leading to well-meaning but misguided advice being shared.

• Misinformation spreads easily within communities, hindering individuals' ability to distinguish between valuable advice and misleading guidance.

Evaluating Advice

• Most books and resources reflect individual experiences rather than industry best practices, making it challenging for learners to identify credible sources.

• Encourages individuals to exercise critical thinking skills when seeking advice or information within product management communities.

Importance of Critical Thinking in Product Management

The speaker emphasizes the significance of critical thinking skills for aspiring product managers and provides practical advice for navigating career decisions effectively.

Critical Thinking Skills

• Stress on researching potential managers during interviews as crucial preparation for success in a product management role.

What Shapes Company Cultures?

The discussion revolves around the differences in company cultures, particularly focusing on the contrast between Silicon Valley companies and those elsewhere. The speaker reflects on their experience of realizing diverse work approaches during visits to other companies.

Contrasting Work Cultures

• Silicon Valley vs. Other Companies:

• Shock at Different Approaches: Visiting Walmart's headquarters revealed stark contrasts in work methods and equipment, prompting a realization of living in a Silicon Valley bubble.

• Spreading Methods and Tools:

• Inspiration for Change: Recognizing the disparity in access to tools and techniques across regions led to the inception of the Silicon Valley Product Group.

• Challenging Perceptions:

• Acknowledging Diverse Practices: Initial disbelief at alternative work styles highlighted by others like Shri, emphasizing the need for broader perspectives.

Effectiveness of Feature Factories

Delving into the debate surrounding feature factories, the conversation explores whether it is acceptable for certain types of companies to operate as such and questions the quality of products resulting from sales-driven approaches.

Feature Factory Debate

• Quality Concerns:

• Critique on B2B Software: Highlighting issues with sales-driven product models leading to subpar software quality, questioning desirability akin to Oracle or SAP products.

• Transition Possibilities:

• Shift Towards Product Model: Illustrating success stories where sales-driven companies improved by adopting a product-focused approach, emphasizing CEO influence on organizational direction.

Empowered Product Teams vs. Feature Teams

Comparing empowered product teams with feature teams, the discussion emphasizes the importance of customer-centricity and proactive problem-solving within organizations.

Team Dynamics

• Customer-Centric Approach:

• Emphasizing Customer Care: Advocating for team members who prioritize customer satisfaction and business improvement over complacency within feature-focused roles.

• Employee Mindset:

• Passion for Problem-Solving: Reflecting on Christian's dedication to solving customer problems as an example of ideal employee engagement and commitment.

Cultural Dynamics at Meta (Facebook)

Exploring cultural dynamics within Meta (formerly Facebook), contrasting perceptions of bottom-up versus top-down decision-making processes within the organization.

Organizational Culture Insights

• Decision-Making Structures:

Top-Down vs. Empowered Product Teams

The discussion revolves around the differences between top-down approaches and empowered product teams in product companies.

Top-Down Approach Misconception

• Top-down approach often misunderstood as handing a team a roadmap of features, which is very top-down.

Product Strategy Clarification

• Product strategy is the responsibility of product leaders, not product teams.

Empowerment in Decision-Making

• Empowerment involves leaders making strategic decisions and giving teams the freedom to figure out solutions.

Misunderstanding of Empowerment

• Empowerment does not mean letting product teams decide what to work on; it involves leaders setting bets for teams to solve strategically.

Evolution of Product Management Role

The conversation delves into the changing landscape of the product management role over recent years.

Shift in PM Role Focus

• Past decade saw PMs focusing on growth and optimization, but now there's a return to building, finding market fit, validation, and discovery.

Nuance in Growth Strategies

• Many teams engage in optimization or growth hacking rather than true discovery and validation.

Challenges and Changes in PM Roles

Exploring challenges faced by PM roles and potential changes within organizations.

Transition from Feature Team to Product Team

• Many companies are transitioning from feature-focused work to more strategic product-focused approaches.

Leadership Impact on Evolution

• Quality of leadership plays a crucial role in driving organizations towards strategic decision-making over mere optimization efforts.

New Section

In this section, the speaker discusses the importance of refining arguments and explores the versatility of using strategies in various contexts such as product development.

Refining Arguments and Strategy Usage

• The speaker emphasizes tightening arguments due to people's excessive trust in results.

• Strategies can be utilized in different scenarios like product development or creating a Product Requirements Document (PRD).

• Strategies are versatile and applicable for tasks ranging from spec creation to triaging issues.

Exploring Skills Disruption by AI

This part delves into the impact of AI on product management skills, particularly focusing on communication enhancement and potential skill shifts over the next decade.

Impact of AI on Product Management Skills

• Short-term improvements include enhanced communication through tools like GPT for writing strategies.

• Discussion centers around skills that may diminish with AI advancements, especially in engineering and design roles.

Evolution of Product Manager Roles

The conversation shifts towards the evolving landscape of product manager roles, highlighting the diminishing relevance of certain positions and emphasizing the need for upskilling.

Evolution of Product Manager Roles

• Traditional roles like backlog administrators face challenges as automation increases.

• Administrative tasks within feature team project management are becoming less valuable with technological support.

Product Manager's Role in Viability

This segment focuses on the expanding responsibilities of product managers, particularly concerning viability and value assessment amidst technological advancements.

Expanding Responsibilities for Product Managers

• Emphasis on viability alongside value becomes crucial for product managers, especially with emerging technologies like GPT and gen AI.

• Viability encompasses ensuring products work for business needs, including legal compliance and market feasibility.

Transforming Work Processes with "Transform"

The discussion transitions to the motivation behind writing a new book focused on transforming work processes to align with modern product management practices.

Transforming Work Processes

• Introduction to "Transform," a book addressing transformation techniques essential for adapting to contemporary product management approaches.

• Addressing common challenges faced by companies striving to implement modern practices advocated in previous books.

Detailed Overview

In this section, the speaker discusses the importance of using examples and case studies from outside Silicon Valley to illustrate the effectiveness of a new way of working.

Importance of Non-Silicon Valley Examples

• Silicon Valley companies like Airbnb had an advantage due to their origin but may not be representative.

• Examples from non-Silicon Valley companies that transformed dramatically are crucial for understanding the potential of a new way of working.

• Companies outside Silicon Valley showcased impressive innovations comparable to top tech giants like Amazon.

Transformation Goals

The speaker outlines three main objectives behind discussing transformation in the book.

Objectives of Transformation Discussion

• Provide real insights into transitioning to a new way of working across various industries globally.

• Foster belief in the possibility of transformation while acknowledging its challenges.

• Inspire excitement about post-transformation opportunities and outcomes.

Target Audience and Purpose

The speaker explains the target audience and purpose behind writing the book on transformation.

Target Audience and Purpose

• Intentionally written for CEOs, CFOs, heads of sales, and individuals interested in organizational change.

• Aimed at anyone invested in company evolution towards a product operating model for improved efficiency and innovation.

Empowerment Through Change

The speaker emphasizes empowering individuals within organizations to drive change rather than feeling stuck in existing structures.

Empowering Individuals for Change

• Encourages individuals to take initiative within their teams and organizations for transformative shifts.

Principles and Product Operating Model

In this section, the speaker discusses the importance of principles in successful companies and introduces the concept of a product operating model consisting of three key dimensions.

Principles in Successful Companies

• Principles are crucial in successful companies as they guide decision-making and actions.

• Common principles observed in successful companies include embracing experimentation and ensuring everything released is instrumented for outcome measurement.

Product Operating Model Dimensions

• The product operating model comprises three main dimensions:

1. How to decide what to work on (product strategy).

2. How to solve problems effectively through product discovery.

3. How to build, test, and deploy products reliably to customers.

New Competencies for Companies

This part focuses on four new competencies essential for most companies but often lacking due to role misalignments.

• Many companies lack four critical competencies despite having individuals with corresponding titles: product manager, real product designer, real tech lead, and real product leader.

• These roles are crucial for effective product development and strategy implementation within organizations.

Product Leadership Principles

The discussion shifts towards highlighting key principles related to cultural aspects, team empowerment, discovery, and delivery within successful companies.

• Key principles include prioritizing innovation over predictability, valuing learning over failure, and emphasizing principles over processes.

• Teams should be empowered with clear problem-solving ownership while addressing product risks through quick experimentation and responsible idea testing.

Delivery Principles for Success

This segment emphasizes the significance of specific delivery principles that contribute to success in organizations.

• Delivery principles such as small frequent releases, continuous integration/continuous deployment (CICD), instrumentation of everything, and monitoring play a vital role in achieving organizational goals efficiently.

Product Release Strategies

In this section, the discussion revolves around product release strategies and the frequency of releases in product teams compared to marketing releases.

Product Release Frequency

• Most product teams release about 20 times per day, unlike marketing releases which are periodic.

Airbnb's Approach

• Airbnb follows a model where most announcements are made after products are already out or in experimentation.

Product Ops and Product Operating Model

This part delves into the distinction between Product Ops and the Product Operating Model, emphasizing their roles within companies.

Understanding Product Ops

• Product Ops is likened to Dev Ops and Design Ops, distinct from the Product Operating Model.

Integration with Product Operating Model

• The core of good companies' Product Ops involves user research and data analysts under one leader for streamlined operations.

Value of User Research and Data Analyst Teams

This segment highlights the significance of user research and data analyst teams in decision-making processes within companies.

Longstanding Teams

• Companies have had user research and data analyst teams for over 20 years to aid qualitative and quantitative decision-making.

Challenges with Product Managers Assistance

Here, challenges related to providing assistance to product managers are discussed, along with common misconceptions.

Misconceptions

• Some companies focus excessively on process and governance when defining product Ops, which can be counterproductive.

Hiring Product Managers in Startups

The conversation shifts towards startup founders' reluctance to hire product managers early on and advice regarding their role.

Hiring Timing Advice

• Founders are advised against hiring product managers too soon as it may lead to conflicts unless they understand real product management post-product-market fit.

Detailed Discussion on Various Topics

In this section, the conversation delves into various topics such as product-market fit, recommended books, favorite products, and personal preferences.

Product-Market Fit and Co-Founders

• When achieving product-market fit, it is essential to consider expanding to other products and markets.

• Having a co-founder who excels in product development can be crucial for success.

Recommended Books

• Tony Fadell's book "Build" offers insights into hardware product models based on his experiences with iconic products like iPod and iPhone.

• Tim Urban's book "Wait But Why" challenges thinking processes and provides thought-provoking content.

Favorite Movie/TV Show and Interview Questions

• The guest does not watch many movies or TV shows.

• A key interview question focuses on the candidate's understanding of the role of a product manager.

Favorite Products and Life Mottos

This segment covers favorite products discovered recently, including a unique car rental service. Additionally, the discussion touches upon life mottos that influence decision-making.

Favorite Recent Product Discoveries

• The guest praises Rivan as an exceptional car company akin to Airbnb for cars due to its innovative design approach.

• Wireless airbag vests utilizing AI technology are highlighted as potentially life-saving innovations for motorcycle riders.

Personal Preferences and Life Mottos

• The guest shares a passion for motorcycles and BMW bikes.

Interview Summary

In this section, the speaker discusses the availability of his book in various formats and where listeners can find more information for free.

Book Availability and Contact Information

• The book will be available worldwide in electronic, Kindle, audio, and hardback formats on March 12th.

• All information discussed is freely accessible on the website svg.com Silicon Valley product group.

Community Engagement and Listener Interaction

This part focuses on community engagement, meeting partners, and how listeners can contribute to the conversation.

Community Engagement

• Encourages meeting at least one partner from Silicon Valley product group for an enjoyable experience.

• Partners are gradually being introduced to engage with the community effectively.

Engaging with Listeners

The speaker emphasizes listener interaction by welcoming questions and feedback to inspire content creation.

Listener Interaction

• Content inspiration often stems from questions received from people.

• Appreciates when readers provide feedback or ask follow-up questions as it helps in updating articles online promptly.

Closing Remarks

Wrapping up the interview with gratitude towards the audience and providing ways for listeners to support the show.

Gratitude and Support

• Expresses gratitude for audience participation and time spent during the interview.

• Encourages subscribing to the show on various platforms like Apple Podcast or Spotify.

Final Note

Concluding remarks about finding past episodes or learning more about the show online.

Conclusion

• Directs listeners to find all previous episodes or gather more information about the show at Lenny's podcast.com.