DEBATE: Textus Receptus is equal to NT Autographs- Dr. James White vs Dr Peter Van Kleeck

Name: DEBATE: Textus Receptus is equal to NT Autographs- Dr. James White vs Dr Peter Van Kleeck
Uploaded: 2022-09-24T23:38:57.000Z
Duration: 7 h 6 min 21 s
Description: Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio along with the Historical Bible Society sponsor a debate between Dr James White and Dr Peter Van Kleeck The topic: The Textus Receptus as the Word of God is equal to the New Testament Autographs

Short Introduction

This section is a brief introduction to the video.

The speaker says "okay".

Using Battery Instead of Power Cord

The speaker suggests using the battery instead of the power cord.

The speaker asks if there is enough juice to unplug and use the battery.

Fair Rate

The speaker mentions that a certain rate is fair.

The speaker says "connected this rate is fair".

Belief

The speaker mentions belief.

The speaker says "as long as I believe".

Introduction to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program

In this section, the speaker introduces his radio program and some of its guests.

The speaker repeats his name and introduces himself as the host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. He encourages listeners to tune in to his program.

He has interviewed prominent thinkers in Christianity such as Dr. RC Sproul, Dr. John MacArthur, and Dr. James R White on his program.

He gives away books during interviews with authors on his show.

Debates Organized by Speaker

In this section, the speaker talks about debates he has organized.

Since 1996, he has been organizing debates featuring Dr. James R White from Alpha Omega Ministries against various groups including Roman Catholics, Muslims, anti-trinitarian cultists, leftist Protestants among others.

He directs listeners to the Alpha Omega Ministries website for more information on these debates.

Thanks to Audio Visual Provider

In this section, the speaker thanks Andrew McMillan for providing audio visual services.

The speaker thanks Andrew McMillan for providing audio visual services at the event.

He acknowledges that audiovisual guys are often unsung heroes of such events.

Thanks to Church of the Living Christ

In this section, the speaker thanks Pastor Doran Ray and Church of the Living Christ for allowing them to use their facilities.

The speaker thanks Pastor Doran Ray and all elders and members of Church of the Living Christ for allowing them to use their facilities.

He expresses hope that they will continue to allow him to use their facilities in future events.

Introduction of Moderator

In this section, the speaker introduces Dan Buttafuoco as his moderator.

The speaker introduces Dan Buttafuoco as his moderator for half of the debate.

He describes Dan as a Christian apologist who is also an attorney and founder/director of Historical Bible Society.

Introduction

The moderator introduces the debaters and explains that there will be a break in the middle of the debate for refreshments. He also briefly discusses the Historical Bible Society.

Introducing the Debaters

Dr. Peter Van Cleef is introduced as a professor at Trinity Baptist College and founder of wisdomgap.org.

Dr. James R White is introduced as an author, New Testament Greek scholar, and professor at Grace Bible Theological Seminary.

About the Historical Bible Society

The society grew out of a private collection of Bibles and aims to use rare texts to get people interested in the word of God.

They go to schools and churches to explain why they believe the Bible is the word of God.

The goal of this debate is to get to the truth, which is important for its own sake and in a Christian context.

Goal of Debate

The moderator explains that the goal of this debate is to get at the truth through a clash of opposites between two learned men.

Getting at Truth

All truth is ultimately God's truth.

Both sides should come into this debate with an open mind towards what is true.

Introduction and Debate Format

The moderator opens the debate with a prayer, introduces the topic of the debate, and outlines the format for the evening.

Debate Format

The debate will consist of opening remarks from Dr. Van Cleef (20 minutes), followed by Dr. White's response (20 minutes).

After this, there will be rebuttals from both sides: Dr. Van Cleef (10 minutes) and Dr. White (10 minutes).

A break will follow.

Cross-examinations round one: Dr. Van Cleef questions Dr. White for 20 minutes, then vice versa.

Cross-examinations round two: Dr. White questions Dr. Van Cleef for 20 minutes, then vice versa.

Finally, closing arguments from both sides: five minutes each for Dr. Van Cleef and then Dr. White.

Opening Remarks by Dr. Van Cleef

In his opening remarks, Dr. Van Cleef defines key terms related to the debate topic and emphasizes that this is not a subjective interpretation of manuscript evidence but rather about what the Spirit of God through the Word of God tells us to believe.

Defining Key Terms

Texas Receptus is defined as the text supported by Protestant Scholastics as authentic with respect to words and meaning in infallibility.

Word of God means scripture; scripture means word of God; New Testament autograph means original document written at hand of original penman without error pertaining to words and meaning.

Framing the Textual Debate

This debate is not about subjective interpretations but rather what Spirit of God through Word of God tells us to believe about preserved words.

Beliefs like creation in six days, Adam created in God's image, Parting of the Red Sea, Jericho falling by marching around its walls, David killing Goliath, Thomas being a disciple of Christ, and Jesus raising Lazarus are not primarily based on evidential grounds.

Belief in the Bible is not special simply because we have thousands of manuscripts.

The TR as the Word of God

The speaker argues that the Textus Receptus (TR) is equal to the New Testament autographs based on three arguments. Firstly, God's word regards itself in autographic terms. Secondly, the reformers historically regarded the TR as equal to the autographic New Testament text. Thirdly, the probability that the TR is equal to the autographic New Testament is very high.

God's Word Regards Itself in Autographic Terms

The Bible regards itself in autographic terms.

There are many examples throughout scripture where people are called to believe and follow God's word without any evidence other than that of His word.

There are many psalmic declarations regarding the word of God being holy, sure, true, right, good, pure, righteous and quickening.

Various biblical figures such as Jesus and Paul speak about scripture being divinely inspired and breathed by God.

Reformers Historically Regarded TR as Equal to Autographic NT Text

Protestant Scholastics regarded TR as authentic text co-adverba.

William Whitaker wrote that a translator of scripture should not corrupt the text but rather translate it faithfully from Greek into Latin using Erasmus' edition of Greek NT which was later known as TR.

John Owen believed that there was no difference between what was found in Erasmus' edition and what was originally written by apostles.

Probability That TR is Equal to Autographic NT is Very High

The TR is based on a large number of manuscripts that are very similar to each other.

The differences between the TR and other manuscript traditions are minor and do not affect any major doctrines.

The TR has been used by the church for centuries and has proven to be reliable.

The King James Version

The speaker discusses the history and significance of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible.

History of KJV

KJV was commissioned by King James I in 1604.

A team of 54 scholars worked on translating the text from Greek and Hebrew into English.

KJV was published in 1611 and became one of the most widely read translations in English-speaking countries.

Significance of KJV

KJV had a significant impact on English language, literature, and culture.

It was also influential in shaping Protestant theology, particularly in America.

Some people believe that KJV is the only true translation of the Bible because it is based on TR.

Conclusion

The speaker concludes his argument by summarizing his main points about TR being equal to autographic NT text, discussing how this relates to KJV, and emphasizing the importance of treating God's word with reverence.

Summary

TR is equal to autographic NT text based on biblical evidence, historical precedent, and probability.

KJV is significant because of its impact on language, literature, and theology.

TR should be treated with reverence as the word of God.

Final Thoughts

The speaker encourages listeners to read and study the Bible for themselves.

He emphasizes that the most important thing is not which translation or manuscript tradition one uses, but rather how one approaches and applies God's word in their life.

The speaker ends with a prayer for all those who seek to know and follow God's will through His word.

The Unimpaired Integrity of the Textus Receptus

This section discusses the unimpaired integrity of the Textus Receptus (TR) and how it is equal to the autographic New Testament.

The TR as Equal to the Autographic New Testament

Edward Lee asserts that there is no mixture of falsehood or error, corruption, or unsoundness in scripture.

Francis Church concludes that unless unimpaired integrity characterizes the scriptures, they cannot be regarded as the sole rule of faith and practice.

John Owen declares that God has preserved his word entire down to the least iota and syllable in the original language or TR.

Richard Mueller writes that there is nothing in scripture of no importance Canon and words together.

The reformers treated the TR as the autographic New Testament.

Probability That TR is Equal to Autographic New Testament

This section discusses how probable it is that TR is equal to the autographic New Testament.

Three Kinds of Evidence

We would expect to find three kinds of evidence when analyzing a given historical event like whether TR is equal to the autographic New Testament.

The first kind of evidence we would expect to find is posterior historical evidence like artifacts, manuscripts, and testimony regarding the autographs.

The second kind of evidence we would expect to find is background evidence which asks if there has been any past behavior on part of the author of The autographs which would precipitate the existence of the autographs.

The third and final kind of evidence we would expect to find is prior historical evidence or the evidence that the author of The autographs would have good reason to bring the autographs into existence.

The Autographs and God's Preservation

In this section, the speaker argues that God is the kind of being that created and preserved the autographs. He also explains why we would expect to find the autographs and testimony to them among God's people.

Creation and Preservation of Autographs

The creation and preservation of the autographs for Christians seems obvious because God has promised to preserve his words.

The autographs are said to be "God-breathed," which further supports the idea that God created and preserved them.

Given these reasons, we would expect to find the autographs and testimony to them among God's people.

Background Evidence

According to the Westminster Confession, "God reveals himself through the autographs."

Protestant Scholastics have testified to having access to the autographic text.

Probability Equation

Using Bayes' theorem, we can determine the probability that TR (Textus Receptus) as the word of God is equal to New Testament autographs given evidence mentioned above.

Probability equation: P(T|E) = P(T|e) * P(e|T) / P(e)

P(T|e): high probability

P(e|T): high probability

P(not T|e): low probability

P(not e|T): low probability

Resulting in a greater than 98% probability that TR is equal to New Testament autograph.

Dr. White Opening Remarks

Dr. White simplifies a complicated subject about whether or not we should utilize what God has given us in defending scripture or retreat back to using only a few manuscripts from centuries ago.

Utilizing Manuscripts

Will we use all the manuscripts we have today, including those that go back to within decades of the originals?

Or will we retreat back to using only a dozen or so manuscripts from centuries ago, like the Texas Receptus?

This is a debate about the future of reformed apologetics.

Importance of Textus Receptus

Dr. White does not believe we should go to Dr. Muller for information on Textus Receptus.

The TR was put together haphazardly during the 16th century and finally put together in one form in the beginning of the 17th century.

It was based upon about a dozen to maybe 20 manuscripts.

Manuscript Evidence

We now have over 5,600 manuscripts and other foreign language manuscripts.

We also have manuscripts that go back to within decades of the originals.

Erasmus used the oldest manuscript he had which was still a thousand years after Christ.

Conclusion

The speaker encourages listeners to accept TR as equal to New Testament autographs based on autographic terminology of scripture, robust reform bibliology, and overwhelming probability.

Arguments Presented

Three arguments were presented in defense of TR as equal to New Testament autographs:

God's word regards itself in autographic terms

Reformers historically regarded TR as autographic New Testament text

Probability that TR is equal to autographic New Testament is very high

Acceptance of TR

Listeners are encouraged to accept TR as equal to New Testament autographs based on evidence presented.

No meaningful undefeated defeater has arisen in form of an alternate and superior autograph consistent with background evidence and prior evidence.

The Textus Receptus and the Critical Text

This section discusses the differences between the Textus Receptus (TR) and the Critical Text, which are two different Greek texts used to translate the New Testament.

The Basis of the KJV New Testament

The TR was primarily based on Erasmus' work between 1516 and 1535, Stephanus' work in 1550, and Beza's work in 1598.

The translators of the King James Version did not use manuscripts but instead used printed editions of Erasmus, Stephanus, and Beza.

F.H.A. Scrivener compiled a Greek text for TR in the late 19th century based on an English translation that was itself based on a small number of printed Greek texts.

Differences Between Printed Editions

Scrivener looked at what choices were made by King James translators when they had to decide what wording to use since there were variances between printed editions.

Scrivener put together a Greek text based upon these decisions made by King James translators.

There is not a single Greek manuscript known to scholarship that reads identically to TR.

The Critical Text

The critical text refers to United Bible Society's Nestle-Aland Greek New Testaments or to Additional Critical Mayor being published out of Munster in Germany.

These texts are based upon more than five thousand currently cataloged Greek manuscripts along with critical usage of early church Fathers' writings.

Critical texts are based upon everything we possess that would give us information about what was originally written by the New Testament authors.

The Central Issue

This section discusses the central issue in any discussion of the text of the New Testament.

What Did the Original Authors Write?

The central issue is what did the original authors of the New Testament actually write.

The free transmission of the text of the New Testament was widely distributed immediately across the Roman Empire, and there wasn't anybody in charge of it or editing it.

The critical texts are based upon everything we possess that would give us information about what was originally written by the New Testament authors.

Dr. Van Cleeg's Theory

This section discusses Dr. Van Cleeg's theory on TR and how it differs from other theories.

Dr. Van Cleeg's Theory

Dr. Van Cleeg presented a theory that TR is an autographic text of the New Testament, which is different from other theories.

No one else has ever presented this kind of argument before with these specific details.

None of those cited came to this conclusion that TR is an autographic text of the New Testament.

The Preservation of the New Testament

This section discusses how God providentially preserved his word through the immediate and wide distribution of manuscripts through the early church by having multiple authors writing to multiple audiences at multiple times.

Manuscript Distribution

The New Testament was never under the control of a single man or group of men and hence could not be edited or changed.

Multiple authors wrote to different places, such as Paul writing to Corinth, Rome, and Thessalonica, and John's writings.

The beginning of the New Testament was dispersed with no one controlling its distribution.

Churches made copies of letters that were distributed around them.

Formation of the New Testament

Collections of manuscripts began to come together over time.

P46 is the earliest manuscript we have in papyrus form for Paul's major Epistles.

Multiple lines were used for transmission from different places so any disruption or change in one line would stand out in comparison to other manuscripts.

Importance of Free Transmission

Enemies of faith often claim that changes were made during transmission but this is not true since there are multiple lines from different places.

Shirley MacLaine claimed that reincarnation used to be in the Bible but it was taken out by the Council of Constantinople which is false since we have manuscripts older than that council.

Gift from God

We have been given a tremendous gift by God's grace today with access to these papyri which even reformers did not have access to.

Any quotation from anyone prior to the discovery of the papyri on this subject is irrelevant because they did not have access to them.

Manuscripts and the History of the Bible

Dr. White discusses the history of manuscripts and how it affects our understanding of the Bible.

Erasmus' Book of Revelation

Erasmus did not think Revelation was scripture and could not find a single Greek manuscript for it.

He borrowed a friend's Latin Commentary on Revelation that had the Greek in the Latin commentary and had to drag it out of the commentary for his first edition.

When he got to chapter 22, the last pages had fallen off, so he had to back translate from his own Latin into Greek, producing readings that no one had ever seen before in church history.

For his second edition, Erasmus told his printer to use another publisher's copy of Revelation because he knew his own was bad. However, that publisher used Erasmus' first edition for their Book of Revelation, perpetuating errors for centuries.

The Van Cleef Hypothesis

The hypothesis focuses on Matthew 5:18 and canonical iterations.

This interpretation is based on a misunderstanding of what is being addressed in Matthew 5:18.

The hypothesis confuses Canon and text Canon attacks by assuming every copy of scripture was identical in handwritten form when this is not true historically.

There were multiple traditions in Hebrew manuscripts during the first century, leading to variations between copies even if they were considered canonical.

Original Authorship

The original authors' writings are what determine how this debate comes out and how we benefit from it.

Being a Standard

The speaker discusses the critical text and how it is based on everything we possess, which is not everything that has ever existed. He explains that every reading in the Nestle-Aland 28 is a probability and that Bayes theorem can be used as a probability calculus.

No Greek text is identical to another, so this should not be seen as problematic.

We do not know how many manuscripts have been lost over time due to fires, wars, bugs, and weather.

Every reading in the Nestle-Aland 28 is a probability; no one can say for certain which reading is actually the autograph.

Bayes theorem applies as a probability calculus even if it does not imply what some people would like it to imply.

Reformers Were Aware of Issues

The reformers were aware of issues with certain readings even though they did not have access to as many manuscripts as we do today.

Van Clique Hypothesis

The speaker responds to Dr. White's claim that his argument is just the standard response from an average New Testament department. He explains that he learned about this hypothesis from his teachers who took him all the way back to history.

The speaker argues that he can legitimately take on Dr. White's argument without violating Occam's razor.

Dr. White cannot absorb the speaker's argument because he continues to make naturalistic arguments.

The Holy Spirit guides the New Testament, so saying that no one controls its distribution is unchristian.

The speaker's argument accounts for Dr. White's y distribution.

Proximity to Autographs Does Not Guarantee Reliability

The speaker discusses the myth that closeness and proximity to the physical autographs guarantees a reliable and more accurate copy text. He cites "Myths and Mistakes" as a great book about textual criticism.

It is further evident from the papyri that even if the New Testament autograph still existed and influenced the text by the time of their earliest copies, this alone would not guarantee that existing manuscripts are reliable.

Two factors are most important in determining the reliability of a historical document: the number of manuscripts copied in existence and the time between when it was first written and the oldest existing copy.

Dr. White's argument goes against what trained textual critics say.

Historical Reliability and Canon Text

In this section, the speaker argues against the claim that historical reliability equates to more reliability in terms of canon text. He also discusses how canon text is not just a list of names but rather a list of revealed words from God.

Claims about Historical Reliability

Claims that assume a larger number and an earlier date necessarily equate to more reliability commit the logical fallacy.

Protestants' lack of possession of papyri does not matter because even those who disagree with the speaker do not agree with such claims.

Arguments cannot be dismissed by hand-waving; it is important to consider evidence.

The speaker quotes sources that support his argument that Matthew 5:18 means "jot and tittle" rather than "law."

Canon Text

The Canon is not just a list of names but rather a list of revealed words from God.

Mueller's quote shows that for Protestants, the Canon and text went together; they conflated text and Canon.

The Canon represents an actual book populated by words and sentences from God.

Rebuttals

In this section, the speaker offers rebuttals to Dr. White's arguments on posterior historical evidence, distinctively Christian position, category error, and doubt in the Bible.

Posterior Historical Evidence

It is impossible for Dr. White to make claims about having more evidence than ever before since he does not know how much evidence was possessed by other repositories of antiquity.

Distinctively Christian Position

Dr. White's position is not distinctively Christian since anyone can make the same argument based on posterior historical evidence.

Category Error

The speaker has brought the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy to refute any claims of category error from Dr. White.

Doubt in the Bible

The speaker does not doubt his Bible, which is what sets him apart from Dr. White.

Dr. White's Rebuttal

Dr. White responds to the previous speaker's argument about the authenticity of the textus receptus.

The History of Textus Receptus

The speaker argues that the textus receptus is a snapshot of what the text looked like in one area at one period in history.

No evidence has been presented to substantiate the readings contained in textus receptus over against those found in the critical text.

Specific readings will be discussed during cross-examination, such as Ephesians 3:9, which contains a reading from only one manuscript from around 1200.

Every other manuscript has the same reading and no scholar holds his position.

Anachronistic Approach

It is anachronistic to drag Erasmus, Stefanos, Beza, or Calvin into this debate because they did not have access to all of the information available today.

Bayes theorem does not view this as having any kind of history at all; however, textual criticism has always considered historical context when evaluating manuscripts.

Turitan was factually wrong about first John 5:7 because he lived in a time where there was no way for anyone to know what manuscripts contained what materials.

Probability and Controlled Distribution

Everything is probability; however, it is important to consider what is probable versus what are simply errors.

Erasmus recognized how bad his mistakes were when he published The Book of Revelation and would have loved to have had access to all of the information available today.

Controlled distribution of the text, as seen in the Quran, is not the same as recognizing that the Spirit of God is providential in time.

Historical Evidence

There is no historical evidence to support the claim that this is what the autographs read.

Different readings can be found all throughout history and nobody had this textus receptus in their hand.

The Importance of Textual Criticism

In this section, the speaker emphasizes the importance of textual criticism in determining what was originally written by the apostles.

Applying Exegesis and Hermeneutics to Both Books

The same method of exegesis and hermeneutics applied to both books will not result in a different doctrinal system.

The major differences between the two books have almost no theological impact whatsoever.

Teaching of Both Books

Both books teach the Trinity, deity of Christ, resurrection, blood atonement, etc.

If you apply the same standards to both books, you will have the same teaching.

Utilizing Gifts God Has Given Us

When responding to someone like Bart Ehrman who is corrupting the faith of many, we should utilize all gifts God has given us in papyri and early unseals.

We should not throw out historical documents as completely irrelevant.

Identifying Readings Not Found in Early Church

Textual criticism has led to identifying places where readings are not what anyone in the early church was reading.

For example, Revelation 16:5 contains "essaminos" instead of "hacias," which everyone who read it in the early church read about "he who is who was and is the Holy One."

Connection to Early Church

Even if we had the autographic original no later than 1644, we still need textual criticism because it helps us identify readings that were not present in early church readings.

Therefore, it's important to determine what was originally written by apostles using historical documents rather than just praying about it.

Break Time

The speakers take a break and joke about being able to get saved with either version of the Bible.

Resuming the Debate

The speakers resume the debate and prepare for the cross-examination period.

Cross-Examination Period

Dr. Van Cleef will question Dr. White for 20 minutes.

Cards will be passed out for people to write down questions.

Those viewing online will not be able to participate in this mechanism.

Moderator Needed

The speakers are looking for a moderator and jokingly mention that they need someone who is nicely dressed.

Passing Out Cards

His brother mentioned that he will be passing out cards for people who write down questions.

This mechanism won't be available for those viewing online.

The NA28 and the Autographs

In this section, the speaker discusses the relationship between the NA28 and the autographs of the New Testament.

The Concept of Tenacity

The speaker believes in the concept of tenacity as explained by Kurt Holland.

All readings in the New Testament persist in the manuscript tradition, including original readings.

Autographic readings are found in either the text or footnotes provided to the text.

Equivalence to Autographs

The body of NA28 is not equal to autographs.

Original readings are contained in either body or references.

There are 37 registered variants in 1 John chapter 4.

Every verse that does not contain variation is not necessarily autographic.

Many verses in Gospel of John do not contain variation but cannot be equated with autographs.

It is unlikely that a second-century manuscript would change Gospel of John significantly.

Hypothetical Changes

If there was evidence for a change, it would be considered based on its merits.

The Bible and Evidence

Dr. White is asked if he would be willing to change any verse in the New Testament based on evidence.

Willingness to Change Scripture

Dr. White is asked if he would be willing to change any verse in the New Testament based on evidence.

He responds that the question assumes things that are not in evidence.

The conversation turns to how a text has come down to us through multiple lines, making it difficult to make changes without proper evidence.

Dr. White is pressed again on whether there's a single verse of the Bible that he would not be willing to change if there were evidence to change it.

He responds by saying that it depends on what kind of evidence we have and what type of statement we're talking about.

Evidence and Truth

Dr. White discusses the relationship between overwhelming evidence and truth.

Overwhelming Evidence

Dr. White is asked if he believes it's best to conclude something is true when there's overwhelming evidence in favor of it.

He responds by saying that it depends on what type of statement we're talking about (historical, scientific, mathematical).

The conversation turns to evolutionary theory and how fundamental foundations affect how we analyze evidence.

Dr. White agrees that a mountain of actual evidence related to a subject can determine truth but notes that this doesn't necessarily apply to all subjects.

Category Errors

Dr. White explains category errors and provides examples related to historical documents.

Definition of Category Error

Dr. White defines category error as moving data out of where it has meaning into an area where it does not belong.

This involves attributing properties or characteristics two things they cannot have.

Examples of category errors include:

Using reformed epistemology and warranted belief to analyze historical documents.

Confusing canon with the text, such as specific readings in Jeremiah.

Dr. White notes that category errors are a major issue when it comes to determining what the original readings of historical documents are.

English Canonicity and Inspiration of the Bible

Dr. James White discusses the canonicity and inspiration of the Bible, explaining that the Canon is an artifact of Revelation, not the object of Revelation. He also talks about how the church has had access to the autographic text but not always between two covers.

The Canonicity of John's Gospel

The readings of manuscripts are not the same as the canonicity of John's Gospel.

Nobody prior to modern times could have ever imagined not recognizing this distinction.

The Canon is an artifact of Revelation, not the object of Revelation.

Artifact vs Object of Inspiration

The Canon is inspired as an artifact of Revelation, not in the sense that it is scripture.

The words of scripture are inspired differently than the Canon is inspired.

Understanding Artifact of Revelation

God inspired some books and not all books, which led to the creation of a Canon when he finished inspiring the last book.

God has perfect knowledge of what constitutes a Canon.

This understanding is different from our coming to understand what a Canon is over time in history.

Expert Opinions on Masks and Social Distancing

Dr. White rejects Anthony Fauci's mask and social distancing mandates due to conflicting expert opinions on their effectiveness.

Many experts reject other experts' opinions on these matters.

Dr. White recognizes that there was data available prior to March 2020 regarding mask effectiveness.

Byzantine Text Type

Bruce Massacre regarded Byzantine text type as corrupt and disfigured.

CBGM scholarship regards Byzantine text type as containing very old texts but with few changes between them and Nestle-Aland 28th edition in General Epistles.

Possession by Church Over Time

Church has had access to autographic text but not always between two covers.

No one in the second century possessed a TR and quotes from it.

Dr. White asks if anyone from the fourth century possessed a TR and quotes from it, but there is no answer given.

Understanding the Role of Evidence in Christian Belief

In this transcript, Dr. White and Dr. Van Til discuss the role of evidence in Christian belief. They explore whether or not evidence is necessary to support Christian beliefs and how the church has recognized certain texts as authoritative.

The Church's Recognition of Autographs

Dr. Van Til claims that the church purposely recognized autographs in history.

When asked for an example, he cannot provide one.

Dr. White argues that just because someone cannot name a person from history does not mean their claim is false.

Attaining Evidence for Beliefs

Dr. White believes that almost none of his beliefs are founded on evidence.

He argues that the Word of God is where Christians get all their beliefs from, but they do not use evidential methods to support them.

Dr. Van Til disagrees with this approach and believes it is naturalistic.

Manuscript Evidence vs Holy Spirit Teaching

Dr. Van Til argues that manuscript evidence is not primarily what convinces Christians to believe something is the Word of God.

He believes it is through the Holy Spirit working through people by the Word of God that Christians are convinced.

Dr. White questions how this approach can be used when there are different readings of a text throughout history.

Church's Changing Views Over Time

The church has changed its mind about many things over time due to errors made by humans.

However, Dr. Van Til argues that this does not mean everything should be questioned since it was still guided by the Holy Spirit.

Dr. White questions how we can know which changes were guided by the Holy Spirit and which were human error.

Lack of Manuscript Evidence

Dr. Van Til argues that we cannot make decisions based on what we have right now since there are so many manuscripts missing across time.

Dr. White questions how we can know what the church was writing a thousand years ago if we do not have the manuscripts to support it.

Conclusion

In this transcript, Dr. White and Dr. Van Til discuss the role of evidence in Christian belief and how the church has recognized certain texts as authoritative. They explore whether or not evidence is necessary to support Christian beliefs and how Christians attain their beliefs through the Holy Spirit working through people by the Word of God. They also discuss how changes in views over time can be guided by human error or the Holy Spirit, and how lack of manuscript evidence can impact our understanding of history.

Textual Criticism and Belief

The speaker discusses textual criticism and how it relates to belief. He argues that Christians should base their beliefs on the content of scripture, not just evidence.

The Importance of Scripture

Christians should base their beliefs on the content of scripture.

The reading that Paul wrote in Ephesians 3:9 should be very important to us.

There is no instance where the church has spoken about the proper reading of Ephesians 3:9.

Church Mistakes and Responsibility

Sometimes the church can make a mistake, but that does not excuse them from their responsibility.

Just like how your husband or wife can make mistakes, but that doesn't mean you abolish marriage.

Belief in Scripture

Christians believe in a reading in their Bible like they believe in everything else.

Mormons praying about the Book of Mormon is not equivalent to praying about scripture.

Properly functioning faculties are necessary for understanding scripture, not just prayer.

Calvin's Model

John Calvin taught us to pray over differences in manuscripts using his Aquinas Calvin model.

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The Growth of the Church and Belief in the Bible

Dr. White discusses how the church grew through the Reformation and how individuals' beliefs grow as well. He also talks about how each iteration of belief is a growth, not because of men but because of the Holy Spirit guiding his people.

The Church's Growth Through Reformation

The church grew through the Reformation.

Individuals' beliefs grow as well, called sanctification.

Each iteration of belief is a growth guided by the Holy Spirit.

Advancement in Critical Text and Addition of Other Text

Dr. White asks if advancement in critical text and addition of other text could be considered growth.

Cross-examination begins with Dr. Van Clique questioning Dr. White about textual criticism.

Aim of Textual Criticism

Dr. Van Clique questions Dr. White on textual criticism and its aim to find the autograph or original text.

Original Aim vs Current Aim

Original aim was to find the autograph.

Current aim is to find initial text which can mean autograph or original depending on interpretation.

Believing textual critics focus on finding what was written under inspiration of Holy Spirit.

Multifarious Meaning

Gerd Mink's view that initial text has multifarious meaning does not affect believing textual critics who want to know what was given by Holy Spirit in first century documents.

Advancements in Textual Scholarship

Dr. White discusses advancements in textual scholarship and how it helps to recognize the transmission of text over time.

Advancements in Collating Manuscripts

Advancements in collating manuscripts allow for comparison of readings.

Recognizing transmission of text over time is a good thing.

More data we have, the better understanding we can have of what was originally written by apostles.

Skepticism Towards Textual Scholarship

Dr. White does not understand why some are skeptical towards textual scholarship.

Most people are not familiar with argumentation about initial text or abandonment of text types.

English Technical Scholarship and Textual Criticism

In this section, the speaker discusses technical scholarship and textual criticism. He addresses skepticism towards these fields and explains how the CBGM has increased the number of uncertain passages in Acts and General Epistles.

Understanding Technical Scholarship

The UBS text platform used an ABCD rating for various variants, but it was only in the translators' version.

The CBGM changed this by marking out two readings that have very close coherence for those studying these things.

Erasmus would have loved this kind of information.

Skepticism Towards Textual Criticism

Some are skeptical of textual scholarship when 80% of changes suggested by the CBGM are derived from the Byzantine text form.

However, most differences are minor and do not impact translation or meaning.

Obscure elements of Greek grammar can explain why a variant exists, making it minor if it does not impact translation into English language.

Theological A Priori in Textual Criticism

Dan Wallace argues that theological a priori has no place in textual criticism.

This means that one cannot allow their theological beliefs to influence their reading of evidence to support their eschatological perspectives.

However, there is still a need to be accurate in handling the word of God.

Ambiguity and Uncertainty in Evangelical Scholars

There is a new generation of Evangelical scholars who are more comfortable with ambiguity and uncertainty than previous generations.

Some people are willing to trade truth for certainty, but we should not do this.

The Bible has an absolutely pure text.

Defining Tinkering

Dr. White and Dr. Van Cleve discuss the definition of tinkering and its relevance to their debate.

Redefining Tinkering

Dr. Van Cleve quotes someone defining tinkering in one context, but Dr. White redefines the term and argues that it is invalid argumentation.

Dr. White asserts that he gets to define how he uses the term since he used it, while Dr. Van Cleve quotes Bart Urban who placed it in a different context.

They disagree on whether or not Bart Urban's citation of tinkering was relevant to their debate.

Preservation of Text

Dr. White and Dr. Van Cleve discuss the preservation of text through God's providence.

Preservation Paradigm

Dr. White brings up the story of wheat and tares as a paradigmatic way of God's preservation of his people.

He asks if such preservation may also take place in the preservation of text, but Dr. Van Cleve says there is no reason to connect Jesus' parable to the historical transmission of text in the New Testament.

Tenacity

They discuss tenacity as a way God preserves correct readings via General Providence along with his words.

The story of wheat and tears is brought up again, but they agree that tenacity does not transform a tear into wheat.

They argue about whether or not God determines what is an authentic reading rather than our subjective interpretation based on a reading's tenacity.

Psalm 12

Dr. White and Dr. Van Cleve discuss Psalm 12 and its relevance to the preservation of text.

Preservation of People or Words

Dr. White brings up Psalm 12:6-7, which discusses whether God preserves his people or his words.

They argue about whether or not there is a connection between Psalm 12 and the historical transmission of text in the New Testament.

They agree that God will either preserve the people from those who are attacking them or preserve his words of Promise toward them.

Determining Correct Reading

Dr. White and Dr. Van Cleve discuss how to determine the correct reading of a text.

Autographs

Dr. White identifies what he wishes to present to the church as the autographs, specifically James 2:18 in this case.

He points out that there is a variant between Stephanos and Scrivener texts, with one saying "show me your faith" and the other saying "by your faith."

They discuss how to determine which reading is correct, with Dr. White arguing that it is determined by the Holy Spirit speaking through the words of God to accept those words by faith.

Church Decision

Dr. Van Cleve argues that it is important for the church to decide which reading is correct so that everyone can be part of it.

However, Dr. White argues that none of us need to know what's in the Stephanus text and that we should trust what our Bible says.

Mechanism for Determining Differences in Translation

The speaker discusses the need for a mechanism to determine differences between translations and the importance of manuscript evidence in decision-making.

Manuscript Evidence in Decision-Making

The speaker argues that manuscript evidence is important but should be low on the decision-making matrix.

Textual critics are servants to the church and submit their arguments to the church.

Farmers, coaches, and stay-at-home moms are fully equipped to recognize what is and is not the word of God because they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

To put manuscript evidence high on the decision-making matrix is unbiblical.

Methodology for Translation

The speaker argues that nobody had this manuscript tradition until around the 1800s.

The methodology proposed by Dr. White scraps the church's Bible and starts fresh, which means starting from zero.

Erasmus did not get rid of it; he started with the church's Bible.

Importance of Proper Reading

The speaker discusses how anyone can know which reading is proper.

Proper Reading

The speaker asks how anyone can know which reading is proper.

No clear answer was provided.

Overall Summary

The transcript features a discussion about determining differences between translations and deciding which reading is proper. The speaker argues that manuscript evidence should be low on the decision-making matrix and that textual critics should submit their arguments to the church. Additionally, there was a discussion about methodology for translation, with Dr. White's approach being criticized for scrapping the church's Bible and starting fresh. However, Erasmus did not get rid of it; he started with the church's Bible. The speaker did not provide a clear answer on how anyone can know which reading is proper.

Autographic Words and the Holy Spirit

The speaker discusses how the Holy Spirit speaks through the words of the Bible, and how reading the Bible allows one to hear Jesus' voice. The argument is made that there is a difference between having autographic words between two covers and having them preserved throughout the course of the church.

Autographic Words Preserved Throughout Time

There is a difference between having autographic words between two covers and having them preserved throughout time.

The methodology when preaching a sermon in Revelation chapter 11 should prioritize textual evidence over higher evidence.

Holding to a standard is important for establishing not just the Bible but also its reading and conclusion.

The use of the church over time determines the reading at Revelation 11:2, not just manuscript evidence.

Non-Autographic Readings in Latin

The speaker discusses non-autographic readings in Latin and whether they were blessed by the Holy Spirit.

Non-Autographic Readings in Latin

Believers read scriptures in Latin for 1100 years with numerous readings that are not in TR.

The Holy Spirit only speaks through his own words, so non-autographic readings were not blessed by him.

Christian evidences such as submission to text, obedience to text, growth of church, etc., determine what constitutes God's word.

Debate on the Autograph of Revelation 22

In this debate, Dr. James White and Dr. Jeff Riddle discuss whether Erasmus got the autograph of Revelation 22 right or not.

Opening Statements

Dr. James White argues that Erasmus got it right.

He believes that Erasmus was a brilliant scholar who produced an accurate translation of the Bible.

He argues that there is no evidence to suggest that Erasmus made any mistakes in his translation of Revelation 22.

Dr. Jeff Riddle argues that Erasmus did not get it right.

He believes that Erasmus did not have access to the original Greek text and therefore could not have produced an accurate translation.

He argues that there is evidence to suggest that Erasmus made mistakes in his translation of Revelation 22.

Historical Evidence

Dr. Jeff Riddle presents historical evidence to support his argument.

He explains that there are no Greek manuscripts prior to the 12th century which contain the reading found in Erasmus' translation of Revelation 22:19.

He argues that this suggests that Erasmus' reading is not authentic and was likely added later by scribes.

Dr. James White responds by arguing that absence of evidence does not necessarily mean evidence of absence.

He points out that just because we do not have any manuscripts containing a particular reading does not mean it never existed.

Probability Argument

Dr. Jeff Riddle presents a probability argument against the authenticity of Erasmus' reading.

He explains how the probability decreases with each step from autograph to extant manuscript, and how this applies to Erasmus' translation of Revelation 22.

He argues that the probability of Erasmus' reading being authentic is very low, given the lack of early manuscript evidence and the fact that it only appears in his translation.

Dr. James White responds by arguing that probability arguments are not conclusive and can be flawed.

He points out that probability arguments rely on assumptions which may not be accurate, and that they do not prove anything definitively.

Patristic Citations

Dr. James White presents patristic citations to support his argument.

He explains how various church fathers quoted from Revelation 22:19 in a way that supports Erasmus' reading.

He argues that this suggests that Erasmus' reading was known and accepted by the early church.

Dr. Jeff Riddle responds by arguing that patristic citations are not conclusive evidence for authenticity.

He points out that patristic writers often quoted from memory or paraphrased passages, which could lead to variations in wording.

Closing Statements

Dr. Jeff Riddle concludes by restating his argument against the authenticity of Erasmus' reading.

He argues that there is no compelling evidence to suggest that Erasmus got it right, and plenty of reasons to doubt it.

Dr. James White concludes by restating his argument in favor of the authenticity of Erasmus' reading.

He argues that there is no reason to doubt Erasmus' scholarship or accuracy, and plenty of reasons to trust him as a translator.

Sexual Corruption in America

Dr. James White discusses how America is more sexually corrupt than ancient Greece, and how this has affected the church.

Sexual Corruption in America

Dr. James White states that America is more sexually corrupt than ancient Greece.

He notes that doctrines such as the deity and exclusivity of Jesus Christ, as well as the inspiration and authority of scripture are increasingly being rejected by Evangelicals.

Positive trends include Evangelical views on abortion and sex outside of marriage, but an inconsistent biblical ethic is also evident.

Dr. White cites Proverbs 20:10 to illustrate how diverse weights and measures lead to sexual abomination in our country.

The Texas Receptus

Dr. James White argues against the idea that the Texas Receptus (TR) represents the autographs.

The TR vs Autographs

Dr. White argues that there has not been a single meaningful argument presented to suggest that the TR represents the autographs.

He criticizes circular reasoning used to defend the TR, which he believes is indefensible.

Dr. White emphasizes that Christians have dealt with differences in manuscripts throughout history, and did not present the TR because it did not exist at certain points in time.

He believes it is an absolute abdication of responsibility for Christians to give a meaningful defense based solely on TR without recognizing God's mechanism for preserving his word through manuscript tradition.

Conclusion

Dr. James White concludes his argument against the idea that the Texas Receptus represents the autographs.

Conclusion

Dr. White believes that reformed people can give a strong, clear response to criticisms of Christianity.

He argues that it is absurd to suggest he is part of the reason for increasing acceptance of same-sex marriage and homosexuality.

Dr. White emphasizes that Christians should recognize God's mechanism for preserving his word through manuscript tradition, rather than relying solely on TR as their final authority.

The Importance of Historical Context

In this section, the speaker emphasizes the importance of understanding historical context when studying ancient texts.

Understanding Ancient Texts

The church that dealt with the Christological controversies did not have the TR (Textus Receptus).

Each TR is an iteration of sanctifying work through time.

Ancient texts should be viewed as expressions of belief in that moment in the church's history and objects of scholarly study.

Challenges in Identifying Correct Words

This section discusses why it can be challenging to identify each faithful and correct word of each individual text of scripture.

Challenges in Identifying Correct Words

There are still some difficult readings because they are very challenging and we only have so much material to draw from.

Errors in printing were common before photocopiers were invented.

It is unrealistic to expect all textual issues to be resolved due to how texts have been translated down through history.

Questions for Both Speakers

This section includes questions for both speakers on various topics related to ancient texts.

Questions for Both Speakers

How long do you have to respond? The moderator will determine response times.

Which TR is the real one? Dr. Van Cleef believes it is currently the TBS TR, but each TR is an iteration of sanctifying work through time.

Why has scholarship not been able to identify each faithful and correct word of each individual text of scripture? Dr. White believes that all the original readings continue to exist, but there are still difficult readings due to limited material and challenges in printing.

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Technical Textual Critical Study

Dr. Van Cleeg discusses the methodology used in technical textual critical study and expresses a dismissive attitude toward the Book of Revelation.

Methodology Used in Technical Textual Critical Study

Dr. Van Cleeg explains how he used the same methodology that is used today to do technical textual critical study.

He recommends "Beyond What Is Written" as an excellent resource for information about both Erasmus and Baza and their dealing with the text.

Evidence That Would Change Your Mind About TR

Dr. Van Cleeg states that evidence would have to be the spirit of God moving through the people of God to accept the words of God by faith.

He gives an example of how difficult it is to change one's beliefs, such as switching sides in the Armenian Calvinist debate.

Dr. Van Cleeg emphasizes that he does not have the authority to make a call on whether or not there is an autograph.

Manuscript Discovery That Would Change Opinion on TR

Dr. White explains that if a manuscript that agreed 100% with the Byzantine tax type from the second century were discovered, it would weigh heavily on his opinion of the TR.

He clarifies that while he does not consider the Byzantine text his enemy, it has numerous variances from the TR.

Closing Prayer

The discussion ends with a prayer thanking God for His grace and asking for guidance in the pursuit of truth.