Ken Levine: Looking Glass Interview 5/10

Introduction to Ken LaVine

Background and Career Path

• Ken LaVine introduces himself as the credit director of Rational Games, having started his career at Looking Glass in 1995.

• The podcast theme is "searching for authorship," focusing on personal recollections from projects at Looking Glass.

• LaVine shares that he began his professional journey in screenwriting while still in college, getting an agent and working on spec scripts.

Transition to Game Design

• He describes a brief stint rewriting scripts for Paramount, highlighting the collaborative yet chaotic nature of scriptwriting.

• After moving to New York, he worked as a computer consultant and graphic designer while pursuing playwriting.

• His passion for gaming led him to seek a job in the game industry, eventually finding an ad for Looking Glass.

Joining Looking Glass

First Impressions and Experiences

• Despite lacking qualifications, LaVine was interviewed and hired by Looking Glass, expressing excitement about joining a company he admired.

• He recalls turning down a partnership offer from his consulting firm because of his strong desire to work in games.

Initial Challenges

• LaVine discusses playing various Looking Glass games before joining, including System Shock and Ultima Underworld, which left significant impressions on him.

• He reflects on the unique marketing of System Shock's cover art that initially confused him about the game's content.

First Days at Looking Glass

Onboarding Experience

• Upon starting at Looking Glass in October 1995, LaVine found it disorganized; he had no desk or clear project assigned.

Introduction to Ken's Experience at Looking Glass

Initial Impressions and Challenges

• Ken describes his first day at Looking Glass, highlighting the lack of structure with no desk or computer provided.

• Feeling powerless, he decides to take initiative by going to a movie across the street, which leads to a more defined role upon his return.

• The transition from feeling awkward and unproductive to being welcomed into the team illustrates the initial adjustment period for new employees.

Freedom vs. Structure in Creative Workplaces

• Ken compares the freedom experienced at Looking Glass to that of college life versus high school, emphasizing a lack of oversight.

• He notes that this formlessness contributed both positively and negatively; it fostered creativity but lacked business structure necessary for success.

Experimental Nature of Projects

• The discussion shifts towards how projects began as experiments rather than concrete game ideas, focusing on world simulation before formalizing them into games.

• Ken reflects on how this experimental approach shaped his learning experience in game development.

Collaboration and Concept Development

Working with Doug Church

• Shortly after joining, Ken is assigned to work with Doug Church on an "action RPG," showcasing early collaboration efforts within the company.

• He recalls Doug’s generosity in mentoring him despite his lack of experience, fostering a collaborative environment.

Evolution of Game Concepts

• The project evolves through various names and concepts, including "Dark Camelot," illustrating the iterative nature of game design.

• Ken shares some initial ideas he proposed for game worlds, such as "School for Wizards" and "Dark Elves Must Die."

Creative Ideas and Disappointments

Unique Game Concepts Explored

• One notable idea was "Better Red Than Undead," which combined elements like sword fighting with a campy 1950's Cold War narrative involving zombies.

Shift in Focus Due to Marketing Decisions

Game Development Insights: From Dark Camelot to Thief

Evolution of Game Concepts

• The initial concept for a game was deemed too unconventional, leading to the abandonment of an action RPG idea in favor of "Dark Camelot," which reinterpreted Arthurian legends.

• The narrative featured Morid as a sympathetic hero, challenging traditional portrayals and exploring themes of historical bias where victors shape narratives.

• The characters were depicted with racial nuances, highlighting societal issues through the lens of Arthurian lore, particularly contrasting Morid's background against Arthur's patrician image.

Collaborative Dynamics in Game Design

• Late-night brainstorming sessions between Doug and the speaker fostered creative discussions, showcasing Doug's unpredictable yet insightful contributions to game design.

• The speaker regarded Doug as a genius-level thinker whose ideas significantly influenced their collaborative process, emphasizing the value of learning from such individuals.

Iterative Design Process

• Initial frustrations arose from Doug’s iterative approach to idea generation; however, this method ultimately became integral to their current working style at IR Rational.

• A notable feature that persisted throughout development was the desire for advanced AI interactions that went beyond simple detection states during gameplay.

Audio Innovation in Gaming

• Inspired by "System Shock," there was a strong emphasis on digital audio as a transformative element in gaming, aiming to enhance player immersion through sophisticated sound design.

• The team recognized Looking Glass Studios' pioneering work in audio and ambient soundscapes, striving to replicate and build upon these innovations in their own projects.

Conceptual Shift Towards Thief

• The transition towards creating "Thief" originated from Paul’s suggestion during development struggles with "Dark Camelot," presenting a clearer thematic direction centered around stealth gameplay.

Game Design Inspirations and Concepts

Exploring Stealth Mechanics

• The discussion begins with the speaker reflecting on their initial confusion regarding stealth mechanics in game design, leading to conversations about systemic thinking in games.

• The speaker draws parallels between submarine games and stealth fighter games, emphasizing the power of being unseen versus the vulnerability when detected by enemies.

• They introduce the concept of thermocline layers in water, which create barriers for sonar detection, suggesting a similar approach could be applied to sound and visuals in game environments.

Sound and Light as Game Elements

• The idea emerges to utilize both sound and light maps to enhance gameplay dynamics, allowing players to navigate through darkness or manipulate their environment strategically.

• The speaker confirms that their design documents included elements from submarine and stealth fighter games, focusing on active tools for stealth rather than mere hiding.

Tools for Manipulating Information Space

• Various tools are discussed that allow players to manipulate their surroundings—like moss arrows for silencing footsteps or noise maker arrows—to create an engaging information space rather than just a combat-focused one.

• Emphasis is placed on how these tools contribute more towards managing information within the game world rather than direct combat interactions.

Collaborative Development Process

• The project involved multiple perspectives on integrating sound and visual elements into gameplay; this collaboration was crucial for developing a rich gaming experience beyond traditional shooter mechanics.

• As development progressed, the speaker shifted focus towards world-building aspects while still contributing ideas related to gameplay mechanics.

Evolution of Game Design Ideas

• Initial concepts were collaboratively developed but later expanded upon by other team members who took over specific areas like lighting effects essential for gameplay immersion.

Exploring the Aesthetic of Thief: A Blend of Fantasy and Film Noir

The Conceptualization of Garrett

• The creator aimed to create a character that resonates with both fantasy audiences and film noir enthusiasts, likening Garrett to a private detective akin to Sam Spade.

• The narrative was envisioned as a hybrid aesthetic, merging traditional fantasy elements with noir storytelling, enhanced by steampunk influences.

Artistic Contributions

• Dan R, a talented artist from the film industry, contributed significantly by creating cinematic 2D cut scenes that established the game's tone.

• The casting process involved careful selection of voice actors like Steve Russell to align with the noir theme.

Narrative Structure and Themes

• Initially named Palmer, Garrett's character evolved into an anti-hero who undertakes jobs for clients, reminiscent of classic film noir tropes where he is double-crossed by a femme fatale.

• The story draws parallels to films like "Chinatown," emphasizing themes of betrayal and moral ambiguity within a fantasy context.

Character Complexity and Anti-Hero Dynamics

• There was internal debate regarding how dark Garrett's character should be; during this era in gaming, heroes were typically more virtuous.

• An early mission concept involved Garrett being hired to kill a mob boss but faced resistance from designers who preferred him not directly killing for hire.

Evolution of Game Design Choices

• Ultimately, gameplay shifted towards avoiding direct assassination; players could still choose to kill but it wasn't mandatory for mission completion.

• This evolution reflects broader trends in gaming narratives where anti-heroes are explored more deeply than traditional heroic figures.

Stealth Mechanics and Moral Ambiguity

• Discussion arose about incorporating stealth mechanics that reflect Garrett’s nature as someone who avoids leaving traces behind rather than adhering strictly to moral codes.

Game Development Insights and Aesthetic Choices

Reflections on Project Development

• The speaker reflects on the project, acknowledging that it did not unfold as initially planned. They suggest that a more brilliant plan could have led to a smoother development cycle.

• Despite being an impatient gamer who prefers action over stealth, the speaker appreciates the aesthetic consistency achieved in the game, which aligns with their original vision.

Dichotomies in Game Worlds

• The discussion shifts to thematic dichotomies present in games like Thief, highlighting contrasts such as order vs. chaos and technology vs. nature.

• The speaker connects these themes to other works like System Shock 2 and Bioshock, indicating a recurring interest in exploring opposing forces within game narratives.

Character Motivations and Group Dynamics

• The speaker elaborates on character motivations, particularly focusing on the many (a collective force) versus individualistic characters like showan from System Shock 2.

• They express a personal struggle to understand collective ideologies while identifying more with individualism, emphasizing the importance of understanding diverse perspectives within narrative design.

Ambiguity of Deities in Game Lore

• An interesting point is raised about the ambiguity surrounding characters like the trickster and master builder; one is real while the other’s existence is uncertain.

• This leads to reflections on whether certain gods or figures are real or merely constructs of belief systems within game worlds, prompting deeper philosophical questions about faith and reality.

Mythological Inspirations

• The conversation touches upon mythological inspirations for characters, comparing them to religious figures who transition societies from chaos (wilderness) to order (civilization).

Exploring the Trickster Archetype in Society

The Trickster and Cultural Themes

• The concept of the trickster is introduced, referencing a Greek play that embodies chaotic and violent themes associated with nature and primal instincts.

• A vivid description of a chaotic world filled with violence, sacrifices, and sexual acts, highlighting the trickster's influence on societal norms.

• Discussion on how technology serves as a reformative force against chaos, indicating a recurring theme in various cultures where opposing forces exist.

• The speaker draws parallels between historical political dichotomies (e.g., fascism vs. communism), suggesting that societies often have conflicting ideologies that shape their narratives.

• Video games are mentioned as mediums that explore these societal dichotomies without forcing players to choose sides, reflecting real-life complexities.

Personal Reflections on Team Dynamics

• The speaker expresses discomfort with choosing sides or teams, likening it to feeling trapped by societal expectations or commitments.

• A personal anecdote about not being drawn to sports fandom illustrates a broader commentary on team allegiance versus individual identity.

• Reference to "Thief" game dynamics where characters navigate complex relationships among factions (Chaos, Order, Keepers), emphasizing the struggle for identity amidst conflicting groups.

Development Insights from "Thief" and "System Shock 2"

• Discussion about Garrett's character in "Thief," who exists outside traditional factional alignments, mirroring the speaker's own ambivalence towards group identities.

• Mention of corruption within the Keepers faction in later games suggests an evolution of themes regarding power structures and moral ambiguity.

• Clarification that while the speaker contributed significantly to story development in "Thief," they did not write most dialogue but set foundational elements like character arcs and thematic structure.

Transitioning Roles Between Projects

• The speaker reflects on their role transition from high-level story development in "Thief" to more detailed writing tasks in "System Shock 2."

Game Development Insights from System Shock to Bioshock

The Role of the Designer in Game Development

• The speaker clarifies that they do not build game levels themselves, emphasizing their focus on high-level vision and narrative elements rather than hands-on level design.

• They mention their past experience with mechanical work on System Shock 2, specifically creating narrative sequences within the engine, highlighting a shift away from direct engine work.

• The process involves establishing a three-act structure for the game, similar to what was done in Bioshock, which serves as a foundation for mission development.

Structuring Narrative and Gameplay

• The speaker discusses how they express the three-act structure through missions, collaborating closely with level designers while reviewing their progress regularly.

• Writing supporting dialogue is described as a significant part of their role, stressing that translating big ideas into gameplay requires shared responsibility among team members.

Challenges of Narrative Delivery in Games

• A key challenge highlighted is conveying complex ideas effectively within the constraints of video games compared to novels, where more narrative information can be presented seamlessly.

• The speaker notes that games have limitations in delivering narrative information without relying heavily on cutscenes, which they prefer to avoid.

Innovations in Storytelling Through Gameplay

• They reflect on how System Shock utilized audio logs and environmental storytelling effectively to convey narrative depth at a time when graphical capabilities were limited.

• This approach influenced Bioshock, where the goal was to create an entire game centered around storytelling within the environment using advanced graphics and tools available at that time.

Evolution of Game Mechanics: From System Shock to System Shock 2

• A discussion arises about design shifts between System Shock 1 and System Shock 2, particularly regarding genre focus and gameplay mechanics like stats systems introduced in the sequel.

• The decision to include stats in System Shock 2 stemmed from technical limitations of the engine used; it was not optimized for action-oriented gameplay but allowed for detailed world-building instead.

Game Design Challenges and Innovations

The Shift from Shooter to RPG Elements

• The game design team recognized the need for a richer experience, leading to the integration of RPG elements due to limitations in their shooting mechanics.

• Mark LeBlanc developed a powerful object system for world population, but it had significant overhead, making real-time bullet generation challenging during gameplay.

• Initially, firing a machine gun was nearly impossible because the engine was not optimized for rapid bullet generation; it was designed for slower projectile types like arrows.