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Christopher Hitchens on C-Span talking about events in South Africa (1985)
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Christopher Hitchens on C-Span talking about events in South Africa (1985)

Introduction

The interviewer asks Christopher Hitchens about his recent trip to Africa and his thoughts on the situation in South Africa.

  • Christopher Hitchens discusses his background with South Africa and how he has been saying for years that if the government doesn't change, it will be changed by force.
  • He believes that a revolution has now begun in South Africa, but it makes him sad because it needn't have come to this.

About The Nation Magazine

Christopher Hitchens talks about The Nation magazine, where he writes a column from Washington.

  • The Nation is the oldest weekly magazine in the US, founded in 1865 by a group of abolitionists and liberals.
  • It comes out every week and is published at 72 Fifth Avenue in New York City.
  • Christopher Hitchens writes a column for The Nation from Washington, which he also summarizes elsewhere.
  • He recently took his column to Southern Africa.

Subscribers of The Nation Magazine

Christopher Hitchens talks about the number of subscribers of The Nation magazine.

  • The Nation has about 70,000 subscribers all told.
  • Very few subscribers are in Great Britain, although some of his friends there do read it.
  • Libraries and institutions of higher learning take The Nation as well.
  • True readership is unknown but estimated to be around a quarter million on 17,000 copies.

Purpose Of Trip To Africa

Christopher Hitchens explains why he went to Africa.

  • His intention was to keep himself up-to-date on what's happening in Southern Africa.
  • He visited South Africa (although not officially), Namibia, Angola, Zimbabwe (which was a great passion of his), Zambia (to see the African National Congress), and Harare.

African National Congress

Christopher Hitchens explains what the African National Congress is.

  • The African National Congress (ANC) was started in 1912 as a very modest lobby for what were then called native rights.
  • It was fairly polite, well-mannered, middle-class, and religious.
  • Over time, it became more militant and now says it will take power if necessary by force.

Evolution of the ANC and Apartheid

The ANC evolved from a modest lobbying pressure group into a revolutionary organization by force of circumstance. Apartheid separated not only black and white but also Indians, Cape coloured, Chinese, and Japanese for commercial purposes.

Political Strength of the ANC

  • The political strength of the ANC lies in its advocacy of a non-racial society.
  • Apartheid separates blacks by tribe and language, denominates them minutely, separates Indians from Cape coloured, separates Chinese and designates Japanese as honorary Whites.
  • The system operates on a basis of divide and rule. For example, most policemen in Soweto tend to be recruited from Zulu rural areas so as to use black on black.

Ruling National Party in South Africa

  • The ruling National Party in South Africa is the only ruling party that took the other side in World War II. Most of its leaders were quite openly on the side of Hitler.
  • There is a strong streak of anti-Jewish prejudice in the Africana leadership.

Task for the ANC

  • The task for the ANC is difficult because it has to oppose white fascist ideology while preventing tribalism and other kinds of racial feeling breaking out among different groups.
  • Its greatest achievement is to have done that on its executive in exile where there are Indians, colored people, whites, Africans with different languages and tribes represented.

Future South Africa

In future South Africa your race should not count; it shouldn't be a social category at all when deciding citizenship.

Political Side

  • The political side is inevitably socialist in that the belief that there is no meaningful definition of racial definition of a person's right and necessitates really belief in the Equality Brotherhood.

Zulus and ANC

The ANC has support from many Zulus, including Chief Albert de Chile who was a Zulu leader and the first black man ever to win the Nobel Prize. Encarta is a Zulu organization and political party that is hostile to the ANC's non-racial policy.

Zulus

  • Many Zulus support the ANC.
  • Encarta is a Zulu organization and political party that is hostile to the ANC's non-racial policy.

Anti-Apartheid and Communist Infiltration

The speaker discusses the issue of anti-apartheid and the involvement of communist infiltration in the ANC.

Worthwhile Issue

  • Anti-apartheid is a worthwhile issue to be involved in.
  • The ANC is communist infiltrated, as evidenced by their use of the Communist flag.
  • Bishop Tutu has been seen standing with the flag flying behind him.

Apartheid Movement

  • The apartheid movement is wrong.
  • People are fighting against it, but they will do just what they didn't need to do peer.

Population Relocation for Political Control

The speaker talks about population relocation in Ethiopia for political control.

Population Relocation

  • It was announced that populations need to relocate to Ethiopia not because of drought but for political control.

Exposing Lies About Jerry Falwell's Visit to South Africa

The speaker discusses a program he watched with Jerry Falwell after his visit to South Africa and exposes lies told by Mr. Lowry.

Watching Program with Jerry Falwell

  • Some months ago, he watched a program with Jerry Falwell after his visit to South Africa.
  • After Falwell's remarks, Mr. Lowry appeared and told a big lie about him not visiting people and speaking from another half.

Positive Leaders Working Toward Democratic Solution

  • There are people who are positive and pro-America that are working toward a democratic solution.
  • These leaders are being killed by radicals who won't let them work towards democracy.

Questioning C-Span's Role

  • He questions why C-Span did not expose Lowry's lies during the program.
  • He also questions why C-Span did not investigate or reveal this information.

The South African Communist Party and Nelson Mandela

The speaker discusses the South African Communist Party and Nelson Mandela.

South African Communist Party

  • The South African Communist Party is the only political party in South Africa that doesn't discriminate on grounds of race in its membership.
  • This has earned it a position of respect and admiration among a lot of black people.

Heroic Actions by Some Members

  • Some of their lawyers have acted heroically in the past.

Popular Leader: Nelson Mandela

  • There is no survey of African opinion in South Africa that does not consistently reveal that the popular leader is Nelson Mandela.
  • He is the honorary president of the African National Congress.

Democratic Election Challenge

  • He challenges anyone who disagrees with him to free Nelson Mandela from prison and invite him to contest a democratic election.
  • He believes that if this were to happen, he would win.

The South African Situation

In this section, the speaker discusses the selective indignation against South Africa and highlights other countries with similar issues that are not being boycotted. He also talks about the power of the South African Armed Forces and how little coverage is given to atrocities in other parts of Africa.

Selective Indignation

  • Boycotts have been listed against Russia, but little is said about the genocide in Cambodia or hostilities in Afghanistan.
  • It's naive to say that South Africa is the worst political force in the world while leaving out these other issues.

Power of South African Armed Forces

  • The news media downplays the significance of the South African Armed Forces.
  • They have a large standing army, powerful Air Force, and effective Navy.
  • What would be their role if white people felt threatened?

Atrocities in Other Parts of Africa

  • There is very little coverage of atrocities committed by black governments in other parts of Africa.
  • People leave their own countries to go to South Africa because conditions appear better there.
  • In some border areas between South Africa and other parts of black Africa, there are barbed wire fences and people are shot. Bodies are left to rot.

Tribalism in Africa

In this section, the speaker discusses tribalism as a major problem in Africa. He explains how borders were drawn by colonial powers without regard for tribal differences and how this has contributed to ongoing conflicts. He also talks about how organizations like ANC recognize tribalism as a problem but overcoming it is difficult.

Tribalism as a Problem

  • Tribalism is considered a curse on Africa by every African nationalist.
  • Borders in Africa were drawn by colonial powers and do not conform to tribal or other differences.
  • The Organization of African Unity recognizes this as a problem.

Overcoming Tribalism

  • ANC recognizes that overcoming tribal feeling is necessary to join the organization.
  • It's difficult to overcome tribalism, but it's necessary for progress in Africa.

Sanctions and Boycotts

In this section, the speaker discusses the call for sanctions and boycotts against South Africa. He explains how Western corporations are responsible for propping up the South African economy and how labor practices contribute to oppression. He also talks about how taking action against South Africa is a matter of accepting responsibility.

Responsibility of Western Corporations

  • Western corporations are responsible for propping up the South African economy.
  • Labor practices in South Africa contribute to oppression.
  • Taking action against South Africa is a matter of accepting responsibility.

Conclusion

In this section, the speaker concludes by discussing his hope that citizens in Virginia will take action on issues related to apartheid in South Africa.

Call to Action

  • Citizens in Virginia need people like him to address them on issues related to apartheid in South Africa.

Children caught up in racial prejudice

In this section, the speaker talks about how children are affected by racial prejudice and how it is an unnecessary and needless crime. He also discusses the impact of racial prejudice on South Africa.

Racial Prejudice is an Outrage

  • The speaker views racial prejudice as outrageous gross human rights violations.
  • Innocent little children caught up between the struts of racial prejudice is a terrible reproach.
  • Any thinking person can see through and outgrow racial prejudice.
  • Racial prejudice in practice is an outrage.

Multilateral nature of the problem in South Africa

In this section, the speaker discusses the multilateral nature of the problem in South Africa. He also addresses concerns about black versus white questions and whether there will be a communist elite if there is a change in power.

Divisions Among African National Congress

  • Divisions among African National Congress would be much more pronounced if they came into power.
  • Black versus white questions are being made by government and media in the United States while ignoring other countries' problems between blacks.
  • Fear that there will be a communist elite instead of a racial elite after exchange of power.

Revolution Underway

  • The revolution is underway, and he does not believe that there are moderates in Botha's government.
  • The ideology of the ruling party is fascistic, grew out of admiration for Third Reich, and has never been moderate even during Sharpeville massacre when they claimed to be changing for the better.

ANC and Pro-West or Pro-Soviet

  • The ANC is not pro-West or pro-Soviet, but there is a real chance for a military coup in the country.
  • The army under General Magnus Milan effectively has a great share of state power and keeps Namibia Southwest Africa an independent country under complete occupation and subjection.
  • There's a serious problem of death squads in South Africa, with many people disappearing or being mysteriously murdered.

I'm sorry, but I cannot summarize the transcript as there is no complete transcript provided. The available transcript only covers a small portion of the video and does not provide enough context to create a comprehensive summary.

The Emergence of Congress of South African Trade Unions

In this section, Christopher Hitchens discusses the emergence of Congress of South African Trade Unions and how it is a powerful sign of discontent in the country.

The Emergence of Congress of South African Trade Unions

  • The system in South Africa is based on racial demarcation and exploitation.
  • Foreign investors are beginning to doubt where they spent their money wisely and are reluctant to invest any more due to the extreme vulnerability of an economy that's so heavily based on foreign investment.
  • A mass workers movement is a very likely means for the advancement of the black and democratic cause.

Interview with a Black PR Man from South Africa

In this section, Christopher Hitchens talks about his interview with a black PR man from South Africa and answers questions related to the white government's ability to keep the black population under control.

White Government's Ability to Keep Black Population Under Control

  • Robert Will be one of the course correspondents that was in the interview really i Coppola was I forget some of the words that he used that you felt like that you were backing a communist type government South Africa and things like that.
  • The white government has tremendously sophisticated Western provided armaments. It ranks almost as a NATO member with some alliances and equipment from Israel.
  • They can invade if they do invade Angola, Mozambique or Zimbabwe but it's not going to help them against their own people. If the black majority simply decides to fold its arms and withdraw cooperation which is an increasingly likely scenario because apartheid is based on cheap labor exploitation, the white government will collapse.

The Final Outcome of South Africa

In this section, Christopher Hitchens talks about the final outcome of South Africa and how the West could make a difference.

The Final Outcome of South Africa

  • The whole attempt to keep apartheid going by force is futile. It may end in blood and fire or it could end quickly and cleanly.
  • The West could make a difference as that economy is plugged into ours. We could decouple.

Washington Times on Apartheid

The Washington Times discusses the recent incident involving Mrs. Mandela and calls for State President PW Botha to act promptly and radically to end apartheid.

The Washington Times' Opinion

  • The Washington Times believes that every incident, no matter how provocative, chips away at the idea of ending apartheid gradually.
  • They call for State President PW Botha to act promptly and radically to consign apartheid to the past.

Overview of Recent Events in South Africa

Callers discuss recent events in South Africa, including the manhandling of Mrs. Mandela and the South African government's offer to release Nelson Mandela if he renounces violence.

Recent Events in South Africa

  • A caller from Rock Hill, South Carolina asks about recent events between Mrs. Mandela and Mr. Boutros government.
  • Christopher Hitchens comments on the situation, stating that it is just another stupid manifestation of the apartheid regime.
  • Another caller asks about reports that the South African government would release Nelson Mandela if he renounced violence.
  • Hitchens responds by saying that this is just a trick and propaganda by the government.

Moderates in South Africa

  • A caller asks about finding someone who represents very much establishment to take steps towards a more acceptable direction for their general populace.
  • Hitchens responds by saying that moderation is not something that seems to be in the nature of National Party ideology.

Discussion with Caller from Chula Vista, California

Christopher Hitchens discusses South African philosophy with a caller from Chula Vista, California.

Discussion on South African Philosophy

  • The caller mentions that he agrees with some of the philosophies of South Africa but not all.
  • Hitchens asks the caller to name one philosophy he disagrees with.
  • The conversation ends abruptly and there is no further discussion.

Apartheid in South Africa

In this section, the guest speaker discusses apartheid in South Africa and its impact on the black majority. He also talks about his recent visit to southern Africa and his column on the topic.

Minority Report

  • The guest speaker has written a column called "Minority Report" about apartheid in South Africa.
  • He anticipates writing more columns on this topic as it continues to be an issue in the headlines.
  • The guest speaker recently visited southern Africa for three weeks.

Black Rule in South Africa

  • A caller from Knoxville, Tennessee expresses concern that there are no blacks who can rule South Africa due to their long-term suppression under apartheid. The guest speaker disagrees, stating that the African National Congress (ANC) has many qualified members who could form an orderly transition regime if given the chance.
  • The guest speaker believes that if an election were held, the ANC could be voted into power and form a democratic government. However, he acknowledges that there is a possibility of violence if extreme right-wing groups resist change.

Disinvestment in South Africa

  • A caller from Anchorage suggests that instead of disinvesting from South African corporations, American entities should buy control of them through pension funds and other investments. The caller believes this would be a more effective way to bring about change than simply divesting from these companies.

Buying Out Apartheid

In this section, Christopher Hitchens discusses the idea of buying out apartheid and whether it would be a responsible way to go.

Is Buying Out Apartheid Possible?

  • Some people who advocate for ending apartheid may not like the profit motive or owning equity in corporations.
  • It might be more responsible to buy out apartheid and put resources into it.
  • The African National Congress would likely say that the resources in South Africa belong to them and they want a say in whoever owns them.

Ingenious Proposal from Alaska

In this section, Christopher Hitchens takes a call from Alaska with an interesting proposal regarding South Africa.

Buyout Proposal

  • The caller proposes buying out South Africa's resources.
  • Hitchens is unsure if they would sell and believes the African National Congress would want a say in whoever owns them.

Monkeying with Governments

In this section, Christopher Hitchens discusses intervention in governments and why it's okay to intervene in South Africa but not communist governments.

Intervention Policy

  • The West already intervenes in South Africa through capital investment and weapons flow.
  • If we can intervene one way, why can't we intervene another?
  • There is no relationship between the United States government and any communist government.